REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Trips]

For the Remain Voters, I just wondered what you think the Remain campaign could have done better, to ensure that we stayed in the EU ?

After all, the overall vote was very close and I thought that a genuine concession on Freedom of Movement for a fixed period may have done the trick ? Or was it more complicated than that ?

Campaign was ran awfully, played on fear too much rather than the benefits of the EU, and they didn't challenge the lies coming from the leave side enough.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Attacked the battle bus lie far more vociferously - leave got away with a whopper there.
Attacked Nigel Farage - he was actually a relatively easy target but was able to have his influence over the election without the leave campaign putting him to the question. Now, he may have performed well in those circumstances but not even testing it out was very poor.
Not assumed this was a done deal on day one of the campaign and actually treated the whole thing rather more bloody seriously.
Jeremy Corbyn was so obviously conflicted and half-baked in his support for Remain that I actually think it did damage. And then Leave picked up some impressive percentages in labour heartlands. I honestly think that Corbyn thought there was no way the labour vote would go to leave, and that was a massive mis-step.

There is a lot more but those are the first points that spring to mind.

 

[ProgWolf]

Ok, the football has finished so I'll respond to this properly now. See, I'll grant you that respect even though I don't agree with you on any level whatsoever.



Thank you for watching it but I don't think you did listen, did you? You asked for the views of Lincolnshire residents. I gave you one. He doesn't agree with your preconceptions so you dismiss it, he's either lying or atypical. It's not like he's been accosted on the street and asked to give a one sentence interview in the next ten seconds is it? Look at the context. He's thought about what he's going to say.

You are of course free to posts your own videos of Lincolnshire residents explaining the opposite point of view, I will watch and listen to them.



You might pigeonhole people, I don't. I explained why I responded in that way to you so I'll do it again as it hasn't sunk in - what do you think this is, a revenge crusade on behalf of the people who voted a certain way in 1975 (!) and have felt betrayed since?! Anyone who voted in that referendum must have been at the very least 59 years old by the time last year's vote came around. As I say, that demographic does not have a monopoly on what the country feels. I mean the numbers back it up - old people voted to Leave, young people didn't - but how breathtakingly arrogant do you have to be to talk about your section of society as "we" and dress that up as the feelings of the entire country? You do realise that over 48% of the voters disagree with you? Right?

I completely understand that the majority of the country doesn't agree with me. That's fine, I'm used to it, I can deal with it. What I'd like is a proper explanation from those who voted to Leave why they did what they did and where we go from here.



To reiterate, that is not what "upset" me and please don't ever tell me why I think what I think, you don't know me. What did annoy me last week was you trying to tell me that I think a certain way because of where I live. How deeply offensive can you get?



What do you want me to do? Make Joey Deacon noises when I internally read your posts? Only posts in words of two syllables when I reply to you? How about I square up to Anthony Joshua and then say "oh by the way mate, I'm not a pro boxer so hold back on the old punching bit, eh"? You aren't thick so don't play up to that, please. You're quite capable of debate so don't pretend you aren't. And if you enter into debate then you can't run away while expecting credibility.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss matters properly with you but your attitude is shocking, sorry to say.

Even if we accept that the guy in the video was being totally truthful, the main reason why over 70% of people in that area voted to Leave the EU was because of their concerns about Immigration.

Deutsch, I think you have over-reacted again when you refer to me saying "We voted to Leave" I was merely using the "We" as the majority in the Referendum, that's all. I wasn't trying to tell you that you think a certain way because of where you live. I was annoyed by people like Tim Farron who lives in The Lake District, which is about as far removed from the Multicultural Britain that he professes to love so much, as you can possibly get.

The bit about further education was a little tongue in cheek as a result of the Referendum voting patterns where apparently those working class people who didn't go into further education were more likely to vote Leave. I keep saying to you, if we had a discussion about this face to face, it would be completely different. We would still disagree with each other but look how harsh an email or a text can sound. But when there is a tone of voice and reflection, points being made sound much less confrontational don't they ? I am not the person that you seem to think I am.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

For the Remain Voters, I just wondered what you think the Remain campaign could have done better, to ensure that we stayed in the EU ?

After all, the overall vote was very close and I thought that a genuine concession on Freedom of Movement for a fixed period may have done the trick ? Or was it more complicated than that ?

Remain had little to work with. Their strongest point was the possible impact on the economy but the leave campaign were able to successfully drown that out with the "project fear" response. They were unable (or unwilling) to deal with the leave arguments about immigration which left the leave campaign's strongest position unchallenged.

In the end, a very complicated issue was reduced to a binary decision on the back of a campaign that most reasonable people accept was poor by both sides.

I have said before, I started out as a leave voter but my vote changed because if the leave campaign and it's frankly racist undertones. I have absolutely no doubt that it was the dog whistle arguments on immigration that swung the vote to leave. The debate about immigration, far from being enhanced by the referendum, has descended into a situation where people feel empowered to say things that in my opinion are unacceptable.

 

[thehistorymakers]

I believe many more people were not happy with the EU, but the real project fear, of doom with the economy, was what stopped leave winning by a lot more. Many people who I spoke to who voted remain were far from happy with the EU, were fed of many things about the EU, but worried about their mortgages or jobs. I understand why they voted remain. However I have never met anyone in real life who was so in love with the EU and would almost put EU citizenship above their British citizenship as I have spoken to on this forum.

 

[Johnny75]

My kids believe in Santa I wouldn't give their opinions much credence on the EU either. It is this hackneyed disproportionate view which leads the racism argument.

No proof whatsoever and just a bunch of cliches that are believed by people who only challenge them in like minded settings therefore getting the answer that fits their argument. To add to that, when challenged these people disregard it lies/ propaganda/ not really believing that.

You can see why people destroy the bigots argument but I can't understand why the bigots and racists get so upset over this, I'd have thought they would be glad of the education.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I believe many more people were not happy with the EU, but the real project fear, of doom with the economy, was what stopped leave winning by a lot more. Many people who I spoke to who voted remain were far from happy with the EU, were fed of many things about the EU, but worried about their mortgages or jobs. I understand why they voted remain. However I have never met anyone in real life who was so in love with the EU and would almost put EU citizenship above their British citizenship as I have spoken to on this forum.

A) thank you for telling me why I voted as I did. Very reassuring you are looking out for me. Now you have told me how wrong project fear was I really really regret my decision and wish I voted leave.
B) The EU citizenship vs British Citizenship point is complete bollocks. Un herringue rouge. They aren't and never were mutually exclusive.

 

[thehistorymakers]

A) thank you for telling me why I voted as I did. Very reassuring you are looking out for me. Now you have told me how wrong project fear was I really really regret my decision and wish I voted leave.
B) The EU citizenship vs British Citizenship point is complete bollocks. Un herringue rouge. They aren't and never were mutually exclusive.

Nothing in my post said why you voted remain. My post was posted at someone who said he would think about living in Scotland if they left the UK. Therefore, he is saying he prefers being a European Citizen, to a UK citizen.
I have never met and spoke to a remain supporter who has said that. It is only on this forum or on social media.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

That is now because remain voters are all rather disenfranchised and pissed off. It was never part of the reason for voting remain in the first place was it?

You said that you thought remain got votes because of project fear. So that is putting reasoning to people's votes that you don't know.

 

[machin05]

The hypocrisy of project fear being there was far more scaremongering from the leave campaign. But, of course, Leave they had the tabloid headline writers on their side so that was the end of that.

 

[Trips]

Nothing in my post said why you voted remain. My post was posted at someone who said he would think about living in Scotland if they left the UK. Therefore, he is saying he prefers being a European Citizen, to a UK citizen.
I have never met and spoke to a remain supporter who has said that. It is only on this forum or on social media.

If they live in Scotland surely that's is still part of the UK.

I enjoy the benefits of being an EU citizen, and will truly miss the benefits. Does that mean I prefer being EU citizen to UK citizen also?

 

[thehistorymakers]

That is now because remain voters are all rather disenfranchised and pissed off. It was never part of the reason for voting remain in the first place was it?

You said that you thought remain got votes because of project fear. So that is putting reasoning to people's votes that you don't know.

You have said before that many people had voted Brexit because of racism etc, is that not putting reasoning that you don't know?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

No I didn't.

I said fears about immigration, stoked by people like Farage.

 

[thehistorymakers]

If they live in Scotland surely that's is still part of the UK.

I enjoy the benefits of being an EU citizen, and will truly miss the benefits. Does that mean I prefer being EU citizen to UK citizen also?

The person I refer to said if Scotland voted to leave the UK and Scotland could continue to be in the EU, they would go and live there.
Therefore, that person sees a EU citizenship as more important than UK citizenship. I don't know which one you would prefer, as you have never said.

 

[thehistorymakers]

No I didn't.

I said fears about immigration, stoked by people like Farage.

Is that not putting reasoning why they voted? that you don't know.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

No

 

[MARKakaJIM]

The person I refer to said if Scotland voted to leave the UK and Scotland could continue to be in the EU, they would go and live there.
Therefore, that person sees a EU citizenship as more important than UK citizenship. I don't know which one you would prefer, as you have never said.

So?

Are you really upset by someone not having the same sense of 'national pride' or whatever you'd class it as?

 

[Lord Knows]

The person I refer to said if Scotland voted to leave the UK and Scotland could continue to be in the EU, they would go and live there.
Therefore, that person sees a EU citizenship as more important than UK citizenship. I don't know which one you would prefer, as you have never said.

I would take EU citizenship and passport over a GB one every time, never been one for the patriotic crap.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I value freedom of movement. EU wide health insurance. My ability to work outside the UK without challenge. And all of those for my children as well.

Rather more important to me than a load of John Bull patriotic tub-thumping.

 

[Trips]

The person I refer to said if Scotland voted to leave the UK and Scotland could continue to be in the EU, they would go and live there.
Therefore, that person sees a EU citizenship as more important than UK citizenship. I don't know which one you would prefer, as you have never said.

EU citizenship is important to people. I will always be a UK citizen, unfortunately come March 2019 I won't be a EU citizen.