REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Johnny75]

Sectoral collective pay bargaining with trade unions would help address low pay and inequality.

I wouldn't trust the unions to get it right nor do I want a union to tell me what I can and can't pay people, I didn't elect them so what right do they have to interfere in my business as long as I'm operating within the law? I don't think unions can be trusted with power as they will always try to force parity within an organisation and that's incomparable with running a business and something I don't want to see happen.

I do take the point that we shouldn't have people that can't afford to put food on the table. Saying the minimum wage is too low is one thing and it is proven if you want good staff then you'll pay good wages, however, if people want more wages then they'll have to deal with inflation as the increase in wages has to be accounted for somewhere. People's attitude to money is also very poor and the consumer society we are perpetuating is the cultural change that is needed.

If you want to stop it through product you could say that producers are not allowed to put best before dates on food as it isn't a consume by date. Through product you could fine companies that build in obsolescence into their products (not being able to change the battery in a phone for example), it hits the company and forces them to innovate in a different way.

 

[Tredman]

I'm not really sure we can blame the people on very low wages for not having much money, I also don't think making them eat older food is a solution either.

We have a fundamentally broken system with a small number of extremely well paid people and a large percentage of very low paid people. Its wrong and messing around at the edges will not solve it.

Interesting graph:

from here:
https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I wouldn't trust the unions to get it right nor do I want a union to tell me what I can and can't pay people, I didn't elect them so what right do they have to interfere in my business as long as I'm operating within the law? I don't think unions can be trusted with power as they will always try to force parity within an organisation and that's incomparable with running a business and something I don't want to see happen.

I do take the point that we shouldn't have people that can't afford to put food on the table. Saying the minimum wage is too low is one thing and it is proven if you want good staff then you'll pay good wages, however, if people want more wages then they'll have to deal with inflation as the increase in wages has to be accounted for somewhere. People's attitude to money is also very poor and the consumer society we are perpetuating is the cultural change that is needed.

If you want to stop it through product you could say that producers are not allowed to put best before dates on food as it isn't a consume by date. Through product you could fine companies that build in obsolescence into their products (not being able to change the battery in a phone for example), it hits the company and forces them to innovate in a different way.

You wouldn't be forced to be part of it - obviously the risk would be you lose employees and/or reputation if you chose to exclude yourself from the collective bargaining mechanisms. Whether you choose to pay the agreed rate would be entirely up to you.

 

[Johnny75]

You wouldn't be forced to be part of it - obviously the risk would be you lose employees and/or reputation if you chose to exclude yourself from the collective bargaining mechanisms. Whether you choose to pay the agreed rate would be entirely up to you.

Could you not just stick your fingers up to the unions not join the CBA and pay what you want, which may well be exactly the same. Your employees don't lose fees to the unions and the employer can offer them more money as a result.

Of course you could argue that you don't get the union protection but I'm not comfortable with the politics of fear and I'm not sure not joining a CBA will dent anybody's reputation.

I can see where it would be advantageous in low paid industries that utilise zero hour contracts and employers such as Sports Direct but I can't see Mr Ashley giving a union any power as he really doesn't care for reputations.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Could you not just stick your fingers up to the unions not join the CBA and pay what you want. Your employees don't lose fees to the unions and the employer can offer them more money as a result.

Of course you could argue that you don't get the union protection but I'm not comfortable with the politics of fear.

Of course you could. It is voluntary. This discussion has become, I think, about ways in which pay inequality and low pay could be addressed. Germany, which has a long history of sectoral pay bargaining, has lower levels of inequality than the UK. The most ardent of free market supporters recognise that collective bargaining increases the power of labor to improve wages...at the expense of the employer. Whether you agree with trade unions or not, the outcome I described would largely prevail.

That we have a situation where low pay and pay inequality exist to the extent they do is not the fault of trade unions - that rests with governments and employers.

Large swathes of the public sector workforce are covered by a form of sectoral pay bargaining through the pay review bodies. In recent years, outsourcing of services have reduced the number of employees covered by agreements reached there. The consequence has been that pay, terms and conditions tend to be worse for those employees not covered by the PRB.

 

[Johnny75]

I'm not really sure we can blame the people on very low wages for not having much money, I also don't think making them eat older food is a solution either.

I haven't suggested either. I have said prices will rise if you give everybody a payrise and there is food waste because of poor information here . That food is still fit for consumption and may well bring bills down. It's about a change in thinking not giving people more money to spend trying to do the same things.

We have a fundamentally broken system with a small number of extremely well paid people and a large percentage of very low paid people. Its wrong and messing around at the edges will not solve it.

Interesting graph:

from here:
https://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/scale-economic-inequality-uk

I'm not saying the balance is right but that is more about taxation at the highest level isn't it? Nothing to do with wages and I think this is where the confusion lies. People are equating wages to worth and that isn't correct. I am far from a rich man but I really don't want people to achieve equality through pay as it simply can't exist unless you live in a communist state.

Hypothetical question, if there was no food poverty and everybody could afford a standard of living where there were no health problems but the value of wealth gap was the same as it was now would you still fight for equal pay and on what grounds?

 

[Tredman]

I haven't suggested either. I have said prices will rise if you give everybody a payrise and there is food waste because of poor information here that is still fit for consumption and may well bring bills down. It's about a change in thinking not giving people more money to spend trying to do the same things.



I'm not saying the balance is right but that is more about taxation at the highest level isn't it? Nothing to do with wages and I think this is where the confusion lies. People are equating wages to worth and that isn't correct. I am far from a rich man but I really don't want people to achieve equality through pay as it simply can't exist unless you live in a communist state.

Hypothetical question, if there was no food poverty and everybody could afford a standard of living where there were no health problems but the value of wealth gap was the same as it was now would you still fight for equal pay and on what grounds?

I don't want equal pay, nor think it's a good idea. However, I also don't think it's a good idea to have people in society who earn more in one day than others earn in a year. Yes we could penalise this through tax (very left wing of you!) or we could encourage less uneven pay - that doesn't mean a flat rate, more of a band from lowest paid to highest paid.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I'm not saying the balance is right but that is more about taxation at the highest level isn't it? Nothing to do with wages and I think this is where the confusion lies. People are equating wages to worth and that isn't correct. I am far from a rich man but I really don't want people to achieve equality through pay as it simply can't exist unless you live in a communist state.

Hypothetical question, if there was no food poverty and everybody could afford a standard of living where there were no health problems but the value of wealth gap was the same as it was now would you still fight for equal pay and on what grounds?

But there is food poverty and there are health problems so it isn't an ideological issue. The wealth gap is not the issue, it is the consequences of it that is the issue. If there were no consequences any grounds would likely relate to "envy" rather than "need" and throw up a whole new set of social problems that may or may not be legitimate.

 

[Penk Wolf]

But there is food poverty and there are health problems so it isn't an ideological issue. The wealth gap is not the issue, it is the consequences of it that is the issue. If there were no consequences any grounds would likely relate to "envy" rather than "need" and throw up a whole new set of social problems that may or may not be legitimate.

Your problem is not what those at the top are earning, the problem is that companies want to make too much profit because it affects the share price, which obviously has an impact on too many things.

 

[visage]

Saying the minimum wage is too low is one thing and it is proven if you want good staff then you'll pay good wages, however, if people want more wages then they'll have to deal with inflation as the increase in wages has to be accounted for somewhere.

That doesnt really work in practice though - for example, when the UK introduced the NMW there was no spike in inflation, and there hasnt been any tangible effect whenever its been increased since.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

That doesnt really work in practice though - for example, when the UK introduced the NMW there was no spike in inflation, and there hasnt been any tangible effect whenever its been increased since.

Exactly. Its not often we sing off the same song sheet but if people were paid a living wage then the welfare bill is reduced. We must address this in the brexit hiatus. If not get ready for a decade of more of the same

 

[Penk Wolf]

Exactly. Its not often we sing off the same song sheet but if people were paid a living wage then the welfare bill is reduced. We must address this in the brexit hiatus. If not get ready for a decade of more of the same

The problem is how can your local green grocer or barber or whatever afford to pay a shop assistant £18,000 to £20,000 a year?

I get with the multi nationals and larger companies that make huge profits, but the problem is they're trying to shoehorn one fit for everyone and it's not sustainable.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The current real Living Wage across the UK is estimated to be around £8.45/hr, that equates to a gross salary of £15,379/yr (based on a 35 hour week at flat pay). Just over £2k/yr more than the Minimum Wage pays.

 

[Penk Wolf]

The current real Living Wage across the UK is estimated to be around £8.45/hr, that equates to a gross salary of £15,379/yr.

Not many people work 35 hours.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

In your example of shop assistants do they work more or less than that? I genuinely don't know, I'm sure my head would explode after five minutes of trying to work with the general public again.

It doesn't matter anyway, even if the uplift is pro-rata it'll still make a difference to people.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

The problem is how can your local green grocer or barber or whatever afford to pay a shop assistant £18,000 to £20,000 a year?

I get with the multi nationals and larger companies that make huge profits, but the problem is they're trying to shoehorn one fit for everyone and it's not sustainable.

You make Incentive's to that company or business off their tax bill. Make it a win win.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

OK next hand grenade as we seem to have some cracking views and real debate is going on here now

There is an argument for those who earn more pay more so why don't we introduce better tax bands? Here is my stab

12k nothing

Up to 20k 20%
Up to 40k 25%
Up to 50k 30%
Up to 60k 35%
Up to 100k 40%
Over 100k 45%

Married allowance double so 20 k before you pay views?

 

[Johnny75]

OK next hand grenade as we seem to have some cracking views and real debate is going on here now

There is an argument for those who earn more pay more so why don't we introduce better tax bands? Here is my stab

12k nothing

Up to 40k 20%
Up to 60k 40%
Up to 100k 45%
Over 100k 47%

Views?

I don't have a problem with that in principle (adjusted), would prefer the higher rate tax earners (over £250K) to look at an 'investment tax' where they have to invest in a capital project either with other like minded folks or some sort of non-profit vehicle where the primary aim is to build infrastructure projects. This is not instead of their normal taxation, they are still liable for that, purely an extra tax (this is twice in 1 day Tredman).

I would also split the tax take into the old version of normal taxation and health tax (NI) whereby a percentage goes directly to the health service and can be tracked via freedom of information acts.

 

[Penk Wolf]

You make Incentive's to that company or business off their tax bill. Make it a win win.

Isn't that just pretty much increasing working tax credits.

When I work through Penkridge I find it a shame that virtually every other shop is now a charity shop.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Bit odd.

You would be really pissing off those just under the 40% barrier by putting their tax rate up from 22% to 25%, while rewarding those the other side of it hugely. Not a fan. At all