REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[thehistorymakers]

Married a Spanish girl and then had kids.

Her parents were getting on and she has a disabled sister. She needed to be closer to her family to help out.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Aren't those funds largely mishandled by individual national governments rather than the EU themselves though?

No, because often it isn't a case of mishandling it is fraud and corruption. If you have a building as big as molineux in your town that are as big as Molineux and have never been used in 8 years, do you give that government more money to build more places that aren't going to be used? There comes a time that you have to say the EU is incompetent and very wasteful of taxpayers money at the very least.

 

[visage]

The Americans, of all people, think we've fucked up:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/15/...region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=1

One wonders just how many people need to point out what a terrible idea this is before the willfully ignorant think they *might* have a point.

Yes, we lost. Getting over it, right away.

 

[Johnny75]

No, because often it isn't a case of mishandling it is fraud and corruption. If you have a building as big as molineux in your town that are as big as Molineux and have never been used in 8 years, do you give that government more money to build more places that aren't going to be used? There comes a time that you have to say the EU is incompetent and very wasteful of taxpayers money at the very least.

But the EU don't spend the money so how can they be corrupt, unless you are of course implying the EU was complicit in a fraud?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

No, because often it isn't a case of mishandling it is fraud and corruption. If you have a building as big as molineux in your town that are as big as Molineux and have never been used in 8 years, do you give that government more money to build more places that aren't going to be used? There comes a time that you have to say the EU is incompetent and very wasteful of taxpayers money at the very least.

I don't see how anything improves with someone pulling out of the EU though?

You've still got the same corruption within the individual countries, they just haven't got the EU money to waste, so in your vision nothing would actually improve would it? The view seems even more strange when it's only the UK pulling out rather than a complete abolishmet of the EU, we're not really victims of government's wastefully using EU money over here, as a net contributer to the EU surely it's more like UK money being wasted by Greek, Spanish or whatever government via EU contributions. Is that your real complaint? That some other countries are mugging the UK off by taking their money and throwing it down the drain on pointless projects?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Hey look, we can waste our money without the EU meddling. Have a look at HS2 or that poxy fucking garden bridge.

 

[nimrod]

I don't see how anything improves with someone pulling out of the EU though?

You've still got the same corruption within the individual countries, they just haven't got the EU money to waste, so in your vision nothing would actually improve would it? The view seems even more strange when it's only the UK pulling out rather than a complete abolishmet of the EU, we're not really victims of government's wastefully using EU money over here, as a net contributer to the EU surely it's more like UK money being wasted by Greek, Spanish or whatever government via EU contributions. Is that your real complaint? That some other countries are mugging the UK off by taking their money and throwing it down the drain on pointless projects?

or say, on their welfare state to help out their impoverished working class. you can see the false argument that was there from the start. i mean, what better way to prove you're a working class hero to them than to run away as fast as your little fucking legs can carry you from any potential obligations whilst pointing your fingers at everybody else for letting them down.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Hey look, we can waste our money without the EU meddling. Have a look at HS2 or that poxy $#@!ing garden bridge.

Yes but vote the party out who wasted the money. That is accountable democracy. If there is one HS2 fuck up, you may take it on the chin, but when the same countries keep building huge buildings, airports and train stations without any use, you would think it would sink in that there are billions of euros being wasted. These buildings often give political advantage to local government ministers and Mayors. The EU actually admits billions are being wasted on fraud, it isnt like they don't know. I run past 3 huge buildings in my city every day. They were funded by the EU, but they have never been used. Then the huge trades union building in my city centre, was funded by the EU. It is in use, but my city has over 60% youth unemployment. This same trade union is in court for 2 billion euros of Andalucia courses for the unemployed, to retrain them, only problem there were no courses. The trades unions took names off the unemployment lists and pocket the money. 8 years later no money recuperated and nobody sent to prison. This is your taxpayers money. Yes, of course the trades unions do to everything to indoctrinate people how wonderful the EU is. Mean time everything around me is being privatised, austerity and poverty are abundant. Win for the unions, win for the government, win for the EU answer working class and the poor pay the price.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

But that is all outside the UK. We voted about the UK

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Yes but vote the party out who wasted the money. That is accountable democracy. If there is one HS2 fuck up, you may take it on the chin, but when the same countries keep building huge buildings, airports and train stations without any use, you would think it would sink in that there are billions of euros being wasted. These buildings often give political advantage to local government ministers and Mayors. The EU actually admits billions are being wasted on fraud, it isnt like they don't know. I run past 3 huge buildings in must city every day. They have funded by the EU, but they have never been used. Then the huge trades union building in my city centre, was funded by the EU. It is in use, but my city has over 60% youth unemployment. This same trade union is in court for 2 billion euros of Andalucia courses for the unemployed, to retrain them, only problem there were no courses. The trades unions took names off the unemployment lists and pocket the money. 8 years later no money recuperate and nobody sent to prison. This is your taxpayers money. Yes, of course the trades unions here to everything to indoctrinate people how wonderful the EU is. Mean time everything around me is being privatised, austerity is leaving and poverty are abundant. Win for the unions, win for the government, win for the EU answer working class and the poor pay the price.

Surely that's the fault of your local and/or national government in Spain though?

The EU would've given them that money in good faith that it was being put to use in a beneficial way, if the local people feel that money is being used in the wrong ways then they can still vote that government out at whatever level, then the new guys get the EU funding to use on what projects they deem fit. All you're proposing is that EU funding goes away and governments of all political persuasions are then limited by smaller budgets so you'd imagine everyone will then be worse off with little prospect of things being improved. If you take the EU funding away then you just end up with more situations like Greece, a shit ton of money wasted and nothing forcoming to replace it so budgets get cut and austerity comes to the fore, only a few hours ago you were bemoaning that approach too!

You aren't going to cut corrupt politicians from the system by jumping from the EU, overall corruption might drop as there'll be less money to play with but if the same people are in charge they'll still be just as bent.

 

[thehistorymakers]

But that is all outside the UK. We voted about the UK

The UK was in the EU.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Surely that's the fault of your local and/or national government in Spain though?

The EU would've given them that money in good faith that it was being put to use in a beneficial way, if the local people feel that money is being used in the wrong ways then they can still vote that government out at whatever level, then the new guys get the EU funding to use on what projects they deem fit. All you're proposing is that EU funding goes away and governments of all political persuasions are then limited by smaller budgets so you'd imagine everyone will then be worse off with little prospect of things being improved. If you take the EU funding away then you just end up with more situations like Greece, a $#@! ton of money wasted and nothing forcoming to replace it so budgets get cut and austerity comes to the fore, only a few hours ago you were bemoaning that approach too!

You aren't going to cut corrupt politicians from the system by jumping from the EU, overall corruption might drop as there'll be less money to play with but if the same people are in charge they'll still be just as bent.

Who is paying for that corruption? Mark.

Of course there was always corruption always will be in these countries, it is in their culture. They will always think of new ideas to get more money if someone is stupid enough to keep giving it them.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Somebody said earlier that the EU had learnt it's lesson on wasting money on corruption inthe new eastern block countries.

This report shows that they haven't.

From the link.

Corrupt European countries costing EU nearly £800bn a year, says study




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-nearly-800bn-a-year-says-study-a6944436.html

 

[nimrod]

But that is all outside the UK. We voted about the UK

though you could probably find on something like the EIB website details of projects funded and what industries and countries they relate to, which will presumably include the UK.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Who is paying for that corruption? Mark.

Of course there was always corruption always will be in these countries, it is in their culture. They will always think of new ideas to get more money if someone is stupid enough to keep giving it them.

All EU member states will bear some brunt through their contributions, obviously your net contributors will take a bigger hit as they're paying more into the EU pot. Which brings me back to an earlier point, is your main driver for wanting the UK out of the EU because you don't want other people wasting 'our' money? Are you willing to cut off the support we provide to millions of people because a few corrupt politicians, with no direct involvement in the EU, are abusing the genorosity?

If so that sounds like a very selfish attitude, and that's saying something coming from someone who is generally uncharitable like myself.

 

[ProgWolf]

Because with freedom of movement you can just move to another country for work. When we leave the EU, I'm certain we will have to apply for work permits and immigration status etc.... So there will obviously be a difference when we leave, as was your original point.

But even if that's true, is it really much of a hardship if you really want to live and work in the EU ? Some have said we might need a Visa if we fancy a fortnight in Spain ? Again, I don't really see a problem with that ?

 

[Johnny75]

Somebody said earlier that the EU had learnt it's lesson on wasting money on corruption inthe new eastern block countries.

This report shows that they haven't.

From the link.

Corrupt European countries costing EU nearly £800bn a year, says study




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-nearly-800bn-a-year-says-study-a6944436.html

I'm not sure you understand. The European funds projects. The local government spends that money on those projects. If those projects have funds fraudulently taken at local level it is the responsibility of the local government NOT the EU

 

[Johnny75]

But even if that's true, is it really much of a hardship if you really want to live and work in the EU ? Some have said we might need a Visa if we fancy a fortnight in Spain ? Again, I don't really see a problem with that ?

So you want to make life worse for what exactly?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

The UK was in the EU.

Yes it was. In fact it still is, just for now. So because a load of rubbish happens in Spain you want me to fuck up my kids future over 1000 miles away. Ace. I am SO HAPPY.

 

[Tredman]

But even if that's true, is it really much of a hardship if you really want to live and work in the EU ? Some have said we might need a Visa if we fancy a fortnight in Spain ? Again, I don't really see a problem with that ?

I guess you don't have that much familiarity with getting Visas Prog? It can be a right pain in the backside, particularly if the country you want to travel to has beef with the UK (for example Spain..)