REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Penk Wolf]

Britain acted as the ringleader in blocking attempts to regulate cheap Chinese steel entering Europe, despite warnings that the continent’s steel industry was in crisis.

And they were right to do so, as it was at a time when cheaper steel had already been used and costed into some of the projects.

 

[leedswolf]

And they were right to do so, as it was at a time when cheaper steel had already been used and costed into some of the projects.

So when would it be right to apply higher tariffs if it has already been costed into schemes?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

We have been negotiating for years, it wasn't working.

It was working a lot bloody better than the nonsense we are about to get. As I say, I hope Brexit is an unmitigated failure. Short term pain for long term gain of hopefully being able to reverse this shit idea.

 

[Penk Wolf]

So when would it be right to apply higher tariffs if it has already been costed into schemes?

When it first hits the markets, which will be prior to new projects being costed. However, it's too late for steel.

Mark, the other factor was energy costs, which as I understand is why the rest of Europe have not seen the same impact.

 

[leedswolf]

When it first hits the markets, which will be prior to new projects being costed. However, it's too late for steel.

Mark, the other factor was energy costs, which as I understand is why the rest of Europe have not seen the same impact.

Wouldn't any increases be passed on to the end user?

 

[thehistorymakers]

They were. It was an advisory referendum. Consider parliament advised.

However, as a citizen along with many other millions, I am entitled to disregard both the results of the referendum, the arguments (or lack thereof) for Brexit and maintain a different opinion. I can also expect a representative democracy to mitigate against the will of a relatively small majority and comment about, complain to or vote out and representative that I believe is not holding the decisions of parliament to account either by blindly following dogma or inadequately scrutinising legislation.

This is what you voted for when you wanted to take back control of our democracy and you should be celebrating the fact that I do. If you don't like our democracy you can, as far as I'm concerned, leave and live somewhere else.

Oh wait....

Of course you can, but it won't make any difference. You will just end up more wound up. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, either. Complaining doesn't win elections, voting does.
It is no longer advisory, it was passed through parliament. The only thing that could try to stop it now, is the unelected house of Lords. I would hope that you wouldn't want them to vote against the will of the people and the elected democratic house of parliament.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Of course you can, but it won't make any difference. You will just end up more wound up. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, either.Complaining doesn't win elections, voting does.

The irony of you referring to me as wound up.

I don't believe that politics is a 1 day thing, my opinions are as valid today as they will be on election day and I don't get wound up by my opinions or the considered opinions of others I don't agree with. I think debate and discussion shapes opinions, influences change and is more important to democracy than voting. People complain and things change without resort to the ballot box - if opposition is non existent then so is democracy.

You have offered nothing constructive in this debate. You are not a democrat. And I mean that in a derogatory way.

 

[Trips]

Of course you can, but it won't make any difference. You will just end up more wound up. I don't mean that in a derogatory way, either. Complaining doesn't win elections, voting does.
It is no longer advisory, it was passed through parliament. The only thing that could try to stop it now, is the unelected house of Lords. I would hope that you wouldn't want them to vote against the will of the people and the elected democratic house of parliament.

Please stop using the term "Will of the people" - it is not the will of the people, it is the will of just over half of the voters - do the 16,000,000 people who voted remain not count as people anymore?

Secondly, you use the term "elected democratic house of parliament" yet on the previous page said MP's should not vote against Article 50, and should go with the result of the referendum - how very democratic.

 

[thehistorymakers]

The irony of you referring to me as wound up.

I don't believe that politics is a 1 day thing, my opinions are as valid today as they will be on election day and I don't get wound up by my opinions or the considered opinions of others I don't agree with. I think debate and discussion shapes opinions, influences change and is more important to democracy than voting. People complain and things change without resort to the ballot box - if opposition is non existent then so is democracy.

You have offered nothing constructive in this debate. You are not a democrat. And I mean that in a derogatory way.

That is where threads get closed down. People being derogatory and thinking they are right and other people's opinions are worth nothing. Then to say I am not a Democrat, when you quite clearly find it hard to believe that people who you consider inferior to you offer nothing to the debate.
I will not get tangled up in childish rebukes Debate, but we are meant to be, being grown up, not like acting like
children.

Doesn't take long for the new format to go out the door. I was quite enjoying the new format, too. Shame the childish insults have to start again.

 

[Johnny75]

THM - genuine question, what do you understand democracy is?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Please stop using the term "Will of the people" - it is not the will of the people, it is the will of just over half of the voters - do the 16,000,000 people who voted remain not count as people anymore?

Secondly, you use the term "elected democratic house of parliament" yet on the previous page said MP's should not vote against Article 50, and should go with the result of the referendum - how very democratic.

Will of the people has been good enough for the government and leader of the opposition. The will of the majority of people who voted in the referendum. I think that's what they mean too.

 

[Trips]

Will of the people has been good enough for the government and leader of the opposition. The will of the majority of people who voted in the referendum. I think that's what they mean too.

Let me ask this, how do you think SNP MP's should of voted? Should they have gone with the will of the majority in Scotland?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Let me ask this, how do you think SNP MP's should of voted? Should they have gone with the will of the majority in Scotland?

Try to ask other people questions. Otherwise the thread becomes about me. I will be debating with 10 people, eventually insulted by 3, then blamed for the thread being closed down. Then banned, which I presume is the idea.
If you would be so kind.

 

[Trips]

Try to ask other people questions. Otherwise the thread becomes about me. I will be debating with 10 people, eventually insulted by 3, then blamed for the thread being closed down. Then banned, which I presume is the idea.
If you would be so kind.

You are the only person I've seen on this thread that has advocated MP's should of all just voted for Article 50. If anybody else would like to answer this question, they are more than welcome to, was just wondering what your opinion is on how SNP should have voted, as you believe Labour should have all just voted yes.

 

[lemonjelly]

Will of the people has been good enough for the government and leader of the opposition. The will of the majority of people who voted in the referendum. I think that's what they mean too.

Newsflash! Politicians amend words and phrases to achieve desired outcomes!
Because they use the words, doesn't mean that is what they mean. Ma says "brexit means brexit", a circular, self referencing statement that is meaningless, as it doesn't define what brexit means or involves.
It isn't the will of the people. It is the preference of approx 30% of the population on one given day last summer, based on lies, by people who now no longer adhere to the statements they made.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Newsflash! Politicians amend words and phrases to achieve desired outcomes!
Because they use the words, doesn't mean that is what they mean. Ma says "brexit means brexit", a circular, self referencing statement that is meaningless, as it doesn't define what brexit means or involves.
It isn't the will of the people. It is the preference of approx 30% of the population on one given day last summer, based on lies, by people who now no longer adhere to the statements they made.

Both sides told lies.

 

[thehistorymakers]

You are the only person I've seen on this thread that has advocated MP's should of all just voted for Article 50. If anybody else would like to answer this question, they are more than welcome to, was just wondering what your opinion is on how SNP should have voted, as you believe Labour should have all just voted yes.

I think SNP had a different agenda, it was to leave the UK.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Both sides told lies.

Perhaps you could point out some of the lies told by the Remain campaign. If they existed at all then they certainly weren't as egregious as any number of the ones told by the Leave campaign.

The closest I can think of is Gideon stating he'd issue an Emergency Budget which would by default collapse the UK into recession in the event of Leave. But there are three things to consider there:

1) He was an abysmal Chancellor
2) He never understood basic economics
3) It was never his call to make as his boss shuffled off within hours of the result and he in turn got sacked, so it was never actually an option

If he had issued said Budget then we would have been screwed, like we were with most of his regular Budgets. Getting rid of him is probably the only thing May has got right in the last seven months.

 

[Johnny75]

For the Attention of THM:

THM - genuine question, what do you understand democracy is?

 

[thehistorymakers]

For the Attention of THM:

I saw it Johnny. We both know what democracy means. I just don't want to become the centre of the thread.