REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[leedswolf]

Britain acted as the ringleader in blocking attempts to regulate cheap Chinese steel entering Europe, despite warnings that the continent’s steel industry was in crisis.

 

[Johnny75]

Chinese steel alone didn't kill the industry in Britain though did it?

It was sliding over a prolonged period and if you try to fix it so they remain competitive you still end up inflating subsequent prices whether it's done on day one or decades down the line, eventually someone has to bear the brunt of the increased costs and somewhere along the line it becomes unaffordable so either you stop making the raw material, intermediary companies go to the wall or the final customers buy elsewhere that was produced at a lower cost.

I don't think you could really inflate prices too much on the back of something being 100% British before people stopped giving a $#@! and just bought best value instead, at the end of the day price nearly always wins.

As far as I know a lot of this Chinese steel was fairly low quality so maybe the regulators for construction/ manufacturing should have instructed that only high quality steel be used. I know this is a broad brush stroke but if your steel production costs money and more importantly expertise and not manpower to produce higher quality product then flooding the market is no longer an option.

As construction/ manufacturing costs were already at a level whereby the only steel that could be used was a higher grade steel you can protect your industry against cheap, low quality imports and construction costs do not change.

I use this example as this is exactly what happens in the plastics industry.

 

[thehistorymakers]

It was a one line bill. What amendments are you likely to get into that?

That is exactly why Mrs miller wasted millions of taxpayers money. There was always a majority of MP'S who would follow the government line, they are a majority after all. Remainers argued it should go to parliament, that is where British sovereignty is. Well now, they can no longer complain against losing the referendum and now losing in parliament. That is democracy.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

They should try to get ammendments, yes, but not vote against article 50.

So who in this representative democracy that you voted to take back control of should represent the views of nearly half those people who voted? Or do you not believe in representative democracy and if so why were you so keen for us to take back control of it?

Or, as you have often alluded to, do you believe that a simple majority should always be known as "the will of the people" and be carried regardless? Are there any issues that you would argue against if a government tried to implement something on the back of a small majority in a flawed referendum?

Would you argue against forced repatriation if a simple majority in a referendum voted for it or would you stand back and mutter "will of the people"?

You can't (or won't) reflect on the folly of your arguments. You aren't consistent with anything other than we must leave the EU. It's like you are typing with fingers in both ears. If you are challenged, you make things up about other posters rather than deal with the points they are making - and repeatedly fall back into the line that somehow you are a victim despite nobody (as far as I can tell) saying that article 50 shouldn't be triggered. Accepting something is going to happen doesn't mean people have to agree with it, a point that has been made to you numerous times and is a concept you are struggling to comprehend it seems.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

That is exactly why Mrs miller wasted millions of taxpayers money. There was always a majority of MP'S who would follow the government line, they are a majority after all. Remainers argued it should go to parliament, that is where British sovereignty is. Well now, they can no longer complain against losing the referendum and now losing in parliament. That is democracy.

They can complain as long and as loud as they like...because THAT is democracy.

 

[thehistorymakers]

They can complain as long and as loud as they like...because THAT is democracy.

Yes, but it won't do anything to change the result, or unite the country, to work together for the interests of our children and grandchildren.

 

[thehistorymakers]

So who in this representative democracy that you voted to take back control of should represent the views of nearly half those people who voted? Or do you not believe in representative democracy and if so why were you so keen for us to take back control of it?

Or, as you have often alluded to, do you believe that a simple majority should always be known as "the will of the people" and be carried regardless? Are there any issues that you would argue against if a government tried to implement something on the back of a small majority in a flawed referendum?

Would you argue against forced repatriation if a simple majority in a referendum voted for it or would you stand back and mutter "will of the people"?

You can't (or won't) reflect on the folly of your arguments. You aren't consistent with anything other than we must leave the EU. It's like you are typing with fingers in both ears. If you are challenged, you make things up about other posters rather than deal with the points they are making - and repeatedly fall back into the line that somehow you are a victim despite nobody (as far as I can tell) saying that article 50 shouldn't be triggered. Accepting something is going to happen doesn't mean people have to agree with it, a point that has been made to you numerous times and is a concept you are struggling to comprehend it seems.

I believe that the rules were made before the referendum, you don't make them up after.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

We were united. Bloody Brexit is the thing tearing it apart, while also ensuring reduced rights for our children and grandchildren.


Cheers for that.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

They should try to get ammendments, yes, but not vote against article 50.

And they didn't get any. So they were dissatisfied with the Bill, tried to change it, failed...then voted for it as it was originally. That's not a very good example of democracy working.

If I go to rent a flat tomorrow, have a look around, tell the landlord that I accept I need to live in this area because of pre-arranged commitments but I can't stand the carpet, the oven or the bathroom, some of the fixtures and fittings are clearly broken and the rent is way too high, I wouldn't then go and sign a lease regardless if he refused to take a look at any of those issues.

The term "tyranny of the majority" has been mentioned to you before, you should look it up.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I believe that the rules were made before the referendum, you don't make them up after.

When the views of the 48% who voted against now have to be ignored and shouted down with "you lost" that isn't democratic. That is despotic.

 

[thehistorymakers]

We were united. Bloody Brexit is the thing tearing it apart, while also ensuring reduced rights for our children and grandchildren.


Cheers for that.

That is an opinion as good as mine, but you have accepted the result, so there are only a few choices, support your country, support democracy and do the best you can for children or grandchildren, or don't accept it.

 

[thehistorymakers]

When the views of the 48% who voted against now have to be ignored and shouted down with "you lost" that isn't democratic. That is despotic.

If 48% had voted leave and remain would have won, would you been happy to let us get our sovereignty back and let us control our borders. I doubt it Paddy!

 

[thehistorymakers]

And they didn't get any. So they were dissatisfied with the Bill, tried to change it, failed...then voted for it as it was originally. That's not a very good example of democracy working.

If I go to rent a flat tomorrow, have a look around, tell the landlord that I accept I need to live in this area because of pre-arranged commitments but I can't stand the carpet, the oven or the bathroom, some of the fixtures and fittings are clearly broken and the rent is way too high, I wouldn't then go and sign a lease regardless if he refused to take a look at any of those issues.

The term "tyranny of the majority" has been mentioned to you before, you should look it up.

We have had tyrant since we have been in the EU and we voted out at the first chance. We were the majority and we were not listened to.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Sorry but I will never agree with it. I think the politicians at the head of it are hypocrites (May), turncoats (Johnson) or frankly madmen (Farage). I cannot associate with any of their ideas for this. I will never want to. I hope the whole thing is in some way undone. If it isn't I will rail against it as long as there is a hole in my arse. I am not alone.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

If 48% had voted leave and remain would have won, would you been happy to let us get our sovereignty back and let us control our borders. I doubt it Paddy!

To respond to that, weren't we going to try and negotiate a better deal from within on those points? Wasn't that in the remain manifesto? So now I have a policy of "you voted against, fuck off, you don't count any more". Well cheers. I hope it is an utter and complete fucking disaster and the Remainers can come along afterwards and get on with the work of clearing up the mess as best as they can.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Sorry but I will never agree with it. I think the politicians at the head of it are hypocrites (May), turncoats (Johnson) or frankly madmen (Farage). I cannot associate with any of their ideas for this. I will never want to. I hope the whole thing is in some way undone. If it isn't I will rail against it as long as there is a hole in my arse. I am not alone.

They are transient. I said before, I didn't support any politician. I just wanted out. They can be got rid of in elections and newer dynamic politicians could break through. There will be more accountability, that will be a good thing.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We have had tyrant since we have been in the EU and we voted out at the first chance. We were the majority and we were not listened to.

Like I say, look up what the term means.

I don't think you could describe the EU as remotely "tyrannical" btw unless you had some kind of weird evangelical fervour against it for reasons unexplained.

 

[leedswolf]

As far as I know a lot of this Chinese steel was fairly low quality so maybe the regulators for construction/ manufacturing should have instructed that only high quality steel be used. I know this is a broad brush stroke but if your steel production costs money and more importantly expertise and not manpower to produce higher quality product then flooding the market is no longer an option.

As construction/ manufacturing costs were already at a level whereby the only steel that could be used was a higher grade steel you can protect your industry against cheap, low quality imports and construction costs do not change.

I use this example as this is exactly what happens in the plastics industry.

UKCG banned the use of Chinese rebar because of it's poor quality. Also if the steel hasn't got a fully traceable audit trail then it is unlikely that it would obtain the legal certification required for fabricated structural steel components.

 

[thehistorymakers]

To respond to that, weren't we going to try and negotiate a better deal from within on those points? Wasn't that in the remain manifesto? So now I have a policy of "you voted against, $#@! off, you don't count any more". Well cheers. I hope it is an utter and complete $#@!ing disaster and the Remainers can come along afterwards and get on with the work of clearing up the mess as best as they can.

We have been negotiating for years, it wasn't working.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I believe that the rules were made before the referendum, you don't make them up after.

They were. It was an advisory referendum. Consider parliament advised.

However, as a citizen along with many other millions, I am entitled to disregard both the results of the referendum, the arguments (or lack thereof) for Brexit and maintain a different opinion. I can also expect a representative democracy to mitigate against the will of a relatively small majority and comment about, complain to or vote out and representative that I believe is not holding the decisions of parliament to account either by blindly following dogma or inadequately scrutinising legislation.

This is what you voted for when you wanted to take back control of our democracy and you should be celebrating the fact that I do. If you don't like our democracy you can, as far as I'm concerned, leave and live somewhere else.

Oh wait....