REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[So Long Architect]

You were blind to the suffering of the majority of the British popultion. Now you are worried that suffering might be knocking on your door. 17 million people had had enough. Nobody listened to them and now they have spoken. Accept the democratic result and grow up.

And a couple of points on "accepting the democratic result".

I have no option but to accept it, but that in no way means I can't say what I think is wrong-headed about the whole thing.

And democracy is not another word for the "tyranny of the majority". For now, at least, parliamentary representative democracy means that the rights and interests of minorities - "losers" in your parlance - are protected. It's why we have opposition parties (if only), courts and free press. It's why we don't generally think referendums are a good idea in this country because it gives too much weight to a simple, often slender majority, at the expense of others, without the necessary checks and balances.

So while I have no choice but to accept the vote, you'll have to put up with me and others bitching and moaning about it for a long time to come. You remember how it feels to bitch and moan all the time, don't you?

 

[So Long Architect]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where we aren't allowed to talk about Brexit, if we're unhappy about it, as I keep reading. That we should just suck it up and nod along, regardless of our opinion of it. Allied to the existing and planned treatment of immigrants (y'know, actual living fucking PEOPLE), it actually makes me really embarrassed of the country we've become, and extremely scared about what kind of social climate I'm bringing my daughter into. A world where from the Prime Minister down, we're being told or taught to treat people differently depending on where the accident of birth occurred for them? Fuck that shit. Where you're told that if your opinion or belief isn't in the majority you should just shut the fuck up? Fuck. That. Shit.

This with bells on.

 

[nimrod]

My main motive for wanting Britain out of the eu is that I want Ireland out too. I want to see the whole thing disbanded. Simples. An end to the failed experiment. An end to globalisation. An end to big business and their mates running the show. Power to the people. The workers would all be a lot better off if we weren't funding the parasites at the top.

big business/globalisation exist because companies and very rich individuals control property, capital, media and have significant political influence. none of that has been changed by brexit. anti-establishment was just a soundbite for nige to rally troops, but behind the soundbite there were no policies. first thing osborne did post brexit was to lower the CT rate - i guess big business was quaking in its boots at that one. who did theresa may visit to discuss brexit policy? was it the working men's clubs, or was it to NY to discuss it with Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs....

who's going to deliver a policy post brexit to redistribute wealth without crashing the economy and how are they going to get anyone to vote for it?

 

[visage]

Blame stock markets and the same investment banks, that backed remain. They are attacking the pound, to try to influence a softer Brexit.

Bollocks. The global FX market sees about 4 *trillion* pounds worth of trading every single day. Theres not a great deal individual institutions can do to shift that.

And if they could they'd do it all the time - it would be a license to print money. Whats that Deutsche Bank? In a bit of trouble? Then just buy some pounds and then make them worth more. Problem solved!

 

[Johnny75]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where we aren't allowed to talk about Brexit, if we're unhappy about it, as I keep reading. That we should just suck it up and nod along, regardless of our opinion of it. Allied to the existing and planned treatment of immigrants (y'know, actual living $#@!ing PEOPLE), it actually makes me really embarrassed of the country we've become, and extremely scared about what kind of social climate I'm bringing my daughter into. A world where from the Prime Minister down, we're being told or taught to treat people differently depending on where the accident of birth occurred for them? $#@! that $#@!. Where you're told that if your opinion or belief isn't in the majority you should just shut the $#@! up? $#@!. That. $#@!.

Too fucking right.

The people that voted out need to accept there is a large percentage of people who do not want to leave the EU and accept that whilst we have no plan there will be severe questioning of what people voted for, why and how it helps the country and the people living in it. At the moment there is the square root of fuck all from those that voted out.

 

[nimrod]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where we aren't allowed to talk about Brexit, if we're unhappy about it, as I keep reading. That we should just suck it up and nod along, regardless of our opinion of it. Allied to the existing and planned treatment of immigrants (y'know, actual living $#@!ing PEOPLE), it actually makes me really embarrassed of the country we've become, and extremely scared about what kind of social climate I'm bringing my daughter into. A world where from the Prime Minister down, we're being told or taught to treat people differently depending on where the accident of birth occurred for them? $#@! that $#@!. Where you're told that if your opinion or belief isn't in the majority you should just shut the $#@! up? $#@!. That. $#@!.

they're upholding democracy by telling you not to talk about it!

the delivery of brexit is all new, as no policies existed until after the voe, so as with any other government policy it should be discussed/critiqued. anyone saying you can't discuss it is no democrat.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where we aren't allowed to talk about Brexit, if we're unhappy about it, as I keep reading. That we should just suck it up and nod along, regardless of our opinion of it. Allied to the existing and planned treatment of immigrants (y'know, actual living fucking PEOPLE), it actually makes me really embarrassed of the country we've become, and extremely scared about what kind of social climate I'm bringing my daughter into. A world where from the Prime Minister down, we're being told or taught to treat people differently depending on where the accident of birth occurred for them? Fuck that shit. Where you're told that if your opinion or belief isn't in the majority you should just shut the fuck up? Fuck. That. Shit.

Exactly this. Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I get the people argument that both Del and Leeds are strongly against and also the Deutsch one where he sees himself as a European rather than British, but the economy one I really don't get, yes the pound is going to weaken, as is the Euro, as people like safe investments (Dollar) rather than markets that are unpredictable, but what is going to happen with the real economy is pure speculation, so I can't see why people are been so aggressive about it on either fronts.

I've dealt with a lot of countries outside of Europe and it really hasn't been difficult and that includes places likes of UAE, Oman and Sierra Leone, yes there is a bit more paperwork to send stuff, but that's about it. Regardless of how hard or not the EU will want it to be it really isn't going to be that difficult.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Still no-one can say how exactly anyone's lives will be improved by Brexit. Nebulous concepts like "taking back control" don't mean anything. Can anyone name just one thing that will improve life for the majority of people in the UK after we have left? Even easier - name something that will improve for anyone.

I get that people don't like immigration. I get that people don't like big supra-national organisations that operate in unaccountable ways. I can understand, if not agree with, some of the reasons behind the leave vote.

And I asked all this before the referendum and got no response. What tangible benefits will UK citizens see once Brexit is over and done with? You say we should wait and see - what is it we're waiting for? Because at the moment, like DW, all I can see is things being lost.

OK that is a fair question. I really think we will be trading at less cost with other countries. I also think house prices will stabilise which will be good for the next generations. I think the EU will also reform as its current iteration is too much too soon for the people of Britain ,as proved. France and the Netherlands. I think that if the EU survives we We will rejoin in about 20 years.Then it may be right politically and economically. We will however, always be the country that said no to the current ideology of the EU. For that I will be forever proud.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Any (non-back of a fag packet) evidence?

Yes. Look at the recovery post financial crash. That was worse than brexit will ever be. Look at the last 4 months. Everyone predicted the end of the world. It hasn't happened. Forget the pound that will go up and down like a whores drawers. Business confidence is cautious to good. Non EU countries see an opportunity. China really wants to play. It really is not all doom and gloom. But you won't see or agree as you are too pissed off to give it a chance!

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Too $#@!ing right.

The people that voted out need to accept there is a large percentage of people who do not want to leave the EU and accept that whilst we have no plan there will be severe questioning of what people voted for, why and how it helps the country and the people living in it. At the moment there is the square root of $#@! all from those that voted out.

OK I confess I had to unblock you to read this! Plans do not appear overnight. Patiuence is key here. Buying time is a good thing.

 

[Johnny75]

I get the people argument that both Del and Leeds are strongly against and also the Deutsch one where he sees himself as a European rather than British, but the economy one I really don't get, yes the pound is going to weaken, as is the Euro, as people like safe investments (Dollar) rather than markets that are unpredictable, but what is going to happen with the real economy is pure speculation, so I can't see why people are been so aggressive about it on either fronts.

I've dealt with a lot of countries outside of Europe and it really hasn't been difficult and that includes places likes of UAE, Oman and Sierra Leone, yes there is a bit more paperwork to send stuff, but that's about it. Regardless of how hard or not the EU will want it to be it really isn't going to be that difficult.

With Europe making it harder to deal with how do you think this will benefit our economy in any way? Surely we can only lose in that situation and goods will inevitably become more expensive because of it as scarcity kicks in.

Do you really think that the rest of Europe will not just find a European alternative, it isn't like they need us is it? Europe was stronger with the UK in it and it paid to trade with the UK but why, if you were a European country would you try and sell to Britain if you knew you couldn't compete with Asia? Why would you buy British if it was 20% more expensive? Wouldn't you just source your products from elsewhere or find a different solution?

I really don't see how the economy could get stronger on Brexit, please tell me how it could?

 

[leedswolf]

Like this?

 

[So Long Architect]

OK I confess I had to unblock you to read this! Plans do not appear overnight. Patiuence is key here. Buying time is a good thing.

So ultimately - "trust me, it'll all be fine"?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Yes. Look at the recovery post financial crash. That was worse than brexit will ever be. Look at the last 4 months. Everyone predicted the end of the world. It hasn't happened. Forget the pound that will go up and down like a whores drawers. Business confidence is cautious to good. Non EU countries see an opportunity. China really wants to play. It really is not all doom and gloom. But you won't see or agree as you are too pissed off to give it a chance!

Open trade with China would absolutely fucking kill any last possible vestige of British manufacturing as everything we make would be undercut. I am so so so glad they want to play.

 

[nimrod]

I get the people argument that both Del and Leeds are strongly against and also the Deutsch one where he sees himself as a European rather than British, but the economy one I really don't get, yes the pound is going to weaken, as is the Euro, as people like safe investments (Dollar) rather than markets that are unpredictable, but what is going to happen with the real economy is pure speculation, so I can't see why people are been so aggressive about it on either fronts.

I've dealt with a lot of countries outside of Europe and it really hasn't been difficult and that includes places likes of UAE, Oman and Sierra Leone, yes there is a bit more paperwork to send stuff, but that's about it. Regardless of how hard or not the EU will want it to be it really isn't going to be that difficult.

if you wanted to redistribute wealth away from the establishment you wouldn't care so much about the economy crashing anyway, as the rich and established lose out and people without much won't lose much. of course, the government, as an establishment party, will end up offering incentives and all sorts to stop that happening. that's why the 'anti-establishment' vote on this is ultimately meaningless.

trying to understand someone like thm who expresses both an anti-establishment position and the desire to maintain the economy for the rich and established is pointless.

 

[So Long Architect]

What's with the desire to get cosy with a repressive communist regime? I thought undemocratic things were bad.

 

[leedswolf]

Open trade with China would absolutely fucking kill any last possible vestige of British manufacturing as everything we make would be undercut. I am so so so glad they want to play.

Even Trump wants to steer clear of China?

 

[Penk Wolf]

China is cheap with poor quality. Britain is more costly, but better quality.

The two are very different.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Is there a list of the non-EU countries that see this great opportunity anywhere?

US - only Trump has said he would do a deal. Everyone else has said join the queue. And Trump is an absolute fucking nutter.
Australia? Hardly an economic powerhouse
Japan - of course as they would be massively in credit with that deal as our exports to them are about 0.0000005% of their exports to us. And Japanese product is already cheap here without import duty, so they could undercut without a loss to margin.
China - see above, except a whole lot worse.
Also - if we are giving free trade deals to all and sundry, where is the gap in the exchequer from import duty imposed being made up?