Pre-season friendly thread

[YoungWolf]

No agreed this is a good time. A preseason is better than no preseason. But you can’t start criticising him (not you), when he hasn’t really had time to actually fully implement it.

Oh yeah whether we think he's the right guy or not, we are only going to truly find out with time.

He'll have had pretty much at least a month with all of them (some a fair bit more) except Coady and Traore I think, so it's a decent base to start with anyway.

 

[Tony Towner]

No I fucking didn’t. You have mistaken identity

Then I apologise, there was someone that said it and I thought it was you. If it wasn't, then I'm sorry.

 

[Alan]

Oh yeah whether we think he's the right guy or not, we are only going to truly find out with time.

He'll have had pretty much at least a month with all of them (some a fair bit more) except Coady and Traore I think, so it's a decent base to start with anyway.

Remember the feeling when Saints sacked Adkins and brought in Poch? That worked out okay for them (at least at first, and granted, they were almost assuredly going down had they kept old Nigel).

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Then I apologise, there was someone that said it and I thought it was you. If it wasn't, then I'm sorry.

All cool

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I say a lot of things but I *think* I said that whatever happened, however uninspiring the football, whatever issues we had, I would always say that we would have a <1% chance of getting relegated under Nuno. That risk increased as soon as we appointed Lage - I wouldn't put it down as a particularly strong chance at this stage but it's definitely more of a possibility. Of course the club have taken the gamble that he'll make us better than we were under Nuno; that's their call, I don't agree at this stage (although information is thin on the ground) but it's up to them. If they get it wrong then it'll turn sour amongst the fanbase very quickly.

 

[Tony Towner]

Were getting relegated aren't we

Tomorrow, in fact. Depending on who you ask.

So been through the thread properly. These are the 2 comments I can see about relegation. One clearly taking the piss and the other taking the piss back. Is that it, or have I missed something?

 

[Alan]

So been through the thread properly. These are the 2 comments I can see about relegation. One clearly taking the piss and the other taking the piss back. Is that it, or have I missed something?

The news that we were just relegated, apparently.

 

[jlo]

In two weeks time, can we have a poll thread with a where will we finish question, just to add to the fun and given we'll likely know the team we are heading into the first game with by then. Until then, we're just making our best guesses - although I note not one person talking about returning to a top 7 finish...(which I think we may have done under Nuno, with the fans returning to give him his mojo back)

 

[MARKakaJIM]

So been through the thread properly. These are the 2 comments I can see about relegation. One clearly taking the piss and the other taking the piss back. Is that it, or have I missed something?

I originally saw Andy's comment as a joke but then he followed up with this and made me think otherwise.

I'm concerned until I see a reason not to be.

Then there was this gem too.

If we’re going to sign on players and work on tactics wouldn’t it make sense to sign the players first? It’s easy to write preseason games off but I can’t get losing 6-1 to the mighty Morecambe and the start to the season that followed out of my head.

Hopefully Lage is going to Jeff and explaining exactly what we need and why. As it stands I think the odds on relegation are shortening by the day.

 

[Throbber3]

I wanted to highlight a couple of big differences in our attacking play under Lage. Last season we struggled to get more than 1 in the area. So far there are three or 4 in and around the box when we attack and there is an emphasis , it appears on getting the ball into the area with pace. That is already a positive. The defence is still a dilemma as Yerson looks extremely good( may be even ready) and we still await Coadys return. It is the midfield that appears not to have what it needs in terms of pace and legs. So I anticipate signings in that area even if we go to 3-5-2 or 4-4-2.

 

[AndyWolves]

I originally saw Andy's comment as a joke but then he followed up with this and made me think otherwise.



Then there was this gem too.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about relegation this season than I have been for any other season we've been in the PL since our return.

From what I've seen so far we look shaky in defence, disjointed in midfield and toothless in attack. Even when we've had good spells we don't look particularly threatening. I haven't seen every single minute of every single game so there probably are spells I've missed.

The way Bruno wants to play looks ripe for counter attacking teams in the PL to pick us off.

 

[Tony Towner]

He does, but he's got to get that style in place for the players that are already here, he can't wait for the new ones before doing so. They absolutely have to come though.

 

[Deano]

Not sure why people think talk of relegation is so laughable anyway? Pretty much every season in the Premier League - everyone outside the top 6 or 7 teams can go down. Only takes a bad run, some injuries, a few decisions to go against you and get stuck in a rut and you get dragged right into it.

We are in with teams like Brighton and Southampton with the bookies at around 9/2 - and you can't really argue with those odds now - we have been sucked into that bottom half group. I think we look ill prepared to play the way we are trying to and I do worry for us this season as I think a bad start will see the fans turn - in those first 2 seasons when we finished 7th the fans at Molineux helped us massively at home and it can just as easily work in reverse.

Almost everything depends on recruitment - we need about 4 new quality players to come into the first 11 to play 4-4-2.

 

[Tony Towner]

Sacking Nuno and replacing him with Bruno always made relegation more likely imo. I also think it increased our chances of finishing higher up the league this year. No point having the debate again but nobody knows if he would have snapped us out of the malaise or not, but equally I think he'd have been pragmatic enough to ensure we didn't go down. We chose to go down a high variance route.

Nothing has changed with Lage since we were first rumoured to be interested in him, other than in pre season he seems to have confirmed that the formation he played in Benfica is his preference here. We didn't have the players for that in May and we don't now. You can argue whether that's 2/3/4/5 light but everyone can agree a pacey, commanding centre half is required - massive gamble if we decide that's Mosquera. Someone on the Board must know that, certainly you have to assume Bruno will have told them so you have to think they are working on it. Therefore I think talk of relegation in a serious manner is premature at this stage. End August with a similar looking squad and style and I think we'll be having it though.

 

[Wolvensam]

I wanted to highlight a couple of big differences in our attacking play under Lage. Last season we struggled to get more than 1 in the area. So far there are three or 4 in and around the box when we attack and there is an emphasis , it appears on getting the ball into the area with pace. That is already a positive. The defence is still a dilemma as Yerson looks extremely good( may be even ready) and we still await Coadys return. It is the midfield that appears not to have what it needs in terms of pace and legs. So I anticipate signings in that area even if we go to 3-5-2 or 4-4-2.

I think I'm in this boat too and, as YoungWolf says, there are positive patterns in the play - you can see what they're trying to do. From January onwards last season I couldn't tell you one pattern or how Nuno wanted us to play. We looked absolutely bereft.

In reality we're a decent CM and decent CB away (although I think we'd limp CB to January with what we have) from making this work. Perhaps our summer recruitment has been halted as we'e looking to cash in on Neves/Traore/somebody first, who knows. He'll decide from the pre-season games who is up to the system and who isn't.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

Not sure why people think talk of relegation is so laughable anyway? Pretty much every season in the Premier League - everyone outside the top 6 or 7 teams can go down. Only takes a bad run, some injuries, a few decisions to go against you and get stuck in a rut and you get dragged right into it.

We are in with teams like Brighton and Southampton with the bookies at around 9/2 - and you can't really argue with those odds now - we have been sucked into that bottom half group. I think we look ill prepared to play the way we are trying to and I do worry for us this season as I think a bad start will see the fans turn - in those first 2 seasons when we finished 7th the fans at Molineux helped us massively at home and it can just as easily work in reverse.

Almost everything depends on recruitment - we need about 4 new quality players to come into the first 11 to play 4-4-2.

Excellent post. Nuno proved he could turn things round in his first and third PL season. If we go on a bad run it’s unlikely we’ll turn it round with a “you score one, we’ll score two” approach.

It seems the club have accepted we need a bigger squad yet there’s been next to no movement on that. Most of us agree that the short break and lack of preseason undermined Nuno’s attempt to change style yet the new season is approaching and we’re in a similar position. At least Nuno knew the squad well and their strengths and limitations. Lage is learning as he goals along and on the evidence so far we are going to be very vulnerable to opponents breaking fast.

I’m not sure why so many are so convinced relegation is off the table, maybe they’re assuming the three that came up will go straight back down? I think there’s a good chance at least one will make a fist of it like Sheffield United and then we could be in the mix with the likes of Brighton, Palace and Newcastle. One thing I’m certain of is that unless we bring in 3 or 4 players we’ll be nearer the bottom three than top six.

 

[Loki]

Fair play, if that`s the system he intends to use. I would have thought he would have watched back last season`s games and saw us struggle with 442. He has given the fringe players plenty of game time, admittedly enforced by first team absenteeism, to assess what he needs if he intends to continue with 442. If not, then he is naive and (sings) "there may be trouble ahead". Mind you he has used Mouthino and Neves in the middle of the park which, said videos would have told him, just doesn`t work.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Honestly, I'm more concerned about relegation this season than I have been for any other season we've been in the PL since our return.

From what I've seen so far we look shaky in defence, disjointed in midfield and toothless in attack. Even when we've had good spells we don't look particularly threatening. I haven't seen every single minute of every single game so there probably are spells I've missed.

The way Bruno wants to play looks ripe for counter attacking teams in the PL to pick us off.

That description is just as true of the attempts to play with 4 at the back last season, it was only the use of an inherently conservative system that was able to remove the shaky defence aspect but even then the disjointed midfield and toothless attack were pretty much every present.

It's going to take more than a few early weeks of preseason without even having the full squad at his disposal to rectify that.

He does, but he's got to get that style in place for the players that are already here, he can't wait for the new ones before doing so. They absolutely have to come though.

When a new manager starts with a full preseason to go at then they have to start from their most idealistic perspective, they've got the time try it and see how it goes before looking to iron out any flaws. I don't see any harm at the moment in Lage sticking to his principles, chuck the players in at the deep end and look who sinks or swims, he's then got time on the training ground and with the transfer window still open to tailor his tactics/squad in whatever balance in most suitable to get something that looks more cohesive and productive for when the season comes around.

It'd be a different story if it was a new manager mid-season or dropping right as the season starts, in that situation then it's much more about getting the most out of what's immediately at your disposal from day 1.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Excellent post. Nuno proved he could turn things round in his first and third PL season. If we go on a bad run it’s unlikely we’ll turn it round with a “you score one, we’ll score two” approach.

It seems the club have accepted we need a bigger squad yet there’s been next to no movement on that. Most of us agree that the short break and lack of preseason undermined Nuno’s attempt to change style yet the new season is approaching and we’re in a similar position. At least Nuno knew the squad well and their strengths and limitations. Lage is learning as he goals along and on the evidence so far we are going to be very vulnerable to opponents breaking fast.

I’m not sure why so many are so convinced relegation is off the table, maybe they’re assuming the three that came up will go straight back down? I think there’s a good chance at least one will make a fist of it like Sheffield United and then we could be in the mix with the likes of Brighton, Palace and Newcastle. One thing I’m certain of is that unless we bring in 3 or 4 players we’ll be nearer the bottom three than top six.

Where's the turnaround in the 3rd season?



That just looks patchy and inconsistent all the way through to my eye, who's to say any one style has a greater chance of breaking out of a bad spell than any other? Surely it's got far more to do with the coach identifying the issues and finding ways to overcome them than any predisposed preference toward attacking or defensive football?

Last season was by the far the worst performance of Nuno's reign, hardly a great sign that knowing the squad and it's stengths/weaknesses was paying dividends for him is it?

Fair play, if that`s the system he intends to use. I would have thought he would have watched back last season`s games and saw us struggle with 442. He has given the fringe players plenty of game time, admittedly enforced by first team absenteeism, to assess what he needs if he intends to continue with 442. If not, then he is naive and (sings) "there may be trouble ahead". Mind you he has used Mouthino and Neves in the middle of the park which, said videos would have told him, just doesn`t work.

Hasn't Neves and Moutinho been the most heavily used pairing in central midfield during the period that both have been at the club?

 

[Tony Towner]

Even taking Moutinho's age out of the equation what you are expecting of your centre midfield 2 in a counter attacking 343/352 is very different from a front foot 442