O'Neil In, Out and Shaking it all about

[The Dude]

Three things:

1) Lage played three CHs in every game in 2021/22

I didn't for a second suggest he did. He did however get shot of the one player (Coady) who made a back three work. It's not until the introduction of Dawson that the defensive unit again looked cohesive.

2) We have been pretty crap for ages with three CHs, alternately stodgy as all hell going forward and looking like a Mark McGhee team on the ball, or still leaking goals despite the extra defender (last season)

I suspect playing a four last season would have been (indeed was v coventry) worse than a back three.

3) Continually running back to three CHs because "we can't play four at the back" (who is "we", here?) smacks of Spinal Tap rolling out Stonehenge when their tour is on the rocks. It didn't help them either

The back four per se, is not the problem. "We" is the current personnel which I believe is and has been for some time the reason we can't play a back four.

Under Nuno, Wolves never had two CB's who didn't look more comfortable in a three.

Under Lage he didn't ditch the three, he just ditched the player who made the three work, so we were no longer capable of playing either formation to a satisfactory level.

Under GON, the three worked okay but Dawson was required to hold the hands of his fellow CB's.

Kilman was never as good without a Coady or a Dawson. He needed his hand holding, I'd have not been happy with him in a four this season holding the hand of Mosquera or Toti.

While Dawson can do the hand holding, he's not mobile enough unless he's in a three.

The personnel needs changing if you wanna play a four, until then it has to be a three...

The hope was, selling Kilman would enable us to bring in a CB capable of holding the hand of his inexperienced defensive partner in a four...

Until that happens, I believe we're stuck with a three.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Think your timeline is out on Lage mate.

When he came in for pre-season 2021 he tried playing a back four, we looked abysmal and we went back to three CHs for the final couple of friendlies. Coady started every single league game in 2021/22 under Lage.

Ahead of 2022/23 he signed Collins and decided he wanted to try a back four again. Because of his appalling man-management he also totally ostracised Coady and more or less forced him to leave. Then Kilman and Collins were an abysmal partnership until the World Cup break.

 

[Johnny75]

I didn't for a second suggest he did. He did however get shot of the one player (Coady) who made a back three work. It's not until the introduction of Dawson that the defensive unit again looked cohesive.

I suspect playing a four last season would have been (indeed was v coventry) worse than a back three.

The back four per se, is not the problem. "We" is the current personnel which I believe is and has been for some time the reason we can't play a back four.

Under Nuno, Wolves never had two CB's who didn't look more comfortable in a three.

Under Lage he didn't ditch the three, he just ditched the player who made the three work, so we were no longer capable of playing either formation to a satisfactory level.

Under GON, the three worked okay but Dawson was required to hold the hands of his fellow CB's.

Kilman was never as good without a Coady or a Dawson. He needed his hand holding, I'd have not been happy with him in a four this season holding the hand of Mosquera or Toti.

While Dawson can do the hand holding, he's not mobile enough unless he's in a three.

The personnel needs changing if you wanna play a four, until then it has to be a three...

The hope was, selling Kilman would enable us to bring in a CB capable of holding the hand of his inexperienced defensive partner in a four...

Until that happens, I believe we're stuck with a three.

I don't think any of this is true especially the last sentence.

The midfield set up, which GoN admits is wrong now, is the bit that is going to change to a 3 in much the same way Liverpool play you would think.

Then 4 at the back would be exactly what we need.

 

[AndyWolves]

Here you go @AndyWolves it illustrates my point perfectly.

I think we need a level of abstraction to be able to have a conversation about it. I think there is value in knowing what we've notionally committed to spend Vs what's notionally committed to us is useful, if not technically correct and not the full picture (esp. when determining what we can spend).

 

[The Dude]

I don't think any of this is true especially the last sentence.

The midfield set up, which GoN admits is wrong now, is the bit that is going to change to a 3 in much the same way Liverpool play you would think.

Then 4 at the back would be exactly what we need.

Personally I'd like to see;

Mosq Dawson Toti

Semedo RAN
Gomes Lemina Andre

Cunha
Larsen

This formation looked like a normal formation when I typed it out. It's a 352, I'm sure you can work it out.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Personally I'd like to see;

Mosq Dawson Toti

Semedo RAN
Gomes Lemina Andre

Cunha
Larsen

Far too much emphasis on the only two attackers in the team there. There just aren't any goals anywhere else.

 

[The Dude]

Personally I'd like to see;

Mosq Dawson Toti

Semedo RAN
Gomes Lemina Andre

Cunha
Larsen

This formation looked like a normal formation when I typed it out. It's a 352, I'm sure you can work it out.

Ideally I wanna see a new CB though.

 

[The Dude]

Far too much emphasis on the only two attackers in the team there. There just aren't any goals anywhere else.

The only other goals in the squad are Hwang and Rodrigo. I'd play one with a new CB, but until then...

I see Rodrigo as a player somewhere between Jota and Neto style wise. Should be handy off the bench and enables us to change shape.

 

[Johnny75]

I think we need a level of abstraction to be able to have a conversation about it. I think there is value in knowing what we've notionally committed to spend Vs what's notionally committed to us is useful, if not technically correct and not the full picture (esp. when determining what we can spend).

Nobody is saying things can't be discussed.

But be prepared to be laughed out of town when they are ostensibly bollocks which Bear has so wonderfully written down above and I've laughed at.

 

[Johnny75]

Personally I'd like to see;

Mosq Dawson Toti

Semedo RAN
Gomes Lemina Andre

Cunha
Larsen

This formation looked like a normal formation when I typed it out. It's a 352, I'm sure you can work it out.

I get what you mean, I just think we don't need 3 CB's and 3 defensive midfielders.

If we're going down the 3 at the back route it has to be like Leverkusen to have success and that's with a front man and 2 x 10's in behind.

Mosquera - Dawson - Toti
Semedo - Andre - Gomes - RAN
Pod - Cunha
JSL
​

I just don't see GoN doing that at all. I think it may be:

Semedo - Mosquera - Dawson - RAN
Andre
Lemina - Gomes
Hwang ------------------ Cunha
JSL
​

I think Hwang is terrible and wouldn't play him at all. I'd replace him with Sarabia or Pod with R. Gomes as back up. Guedes should be the backup to JSL.

Bellegarde has no place in this squad at all.

 

[The Dude]

I get what you mean, I just think we don't need 3 CB's and 3 defensive midfielders.

If we're going down the 3 at the back route it has to be like Leverkusen to have success and that's with a front man and 2 x 10's in behind.

Mosquera - Dawson - Toti
Semedo - Andre - Gomes - RAN
Pod - Cunha
JSL
​

I just don't see GoN doing that at all. I think it may be:

Semedo - Mosquera - Dawson - RAN
Andre
Lemina - Gomes
Hwang ------------------ Cunha
JSL
​

I think Hwang is terrible and wouldn't play him at all. I'd replace him with Sarabia or Pod with R. Gomes as back up. Guedes should be the backup to JSL.

Bellegarde has no place in this squad at all.

And I know my 352 is a bit "safety first" but without a top quality CB with pace to play a high line I don't see a viable alternative.

I think Mosquera shows promise but my god he's raw. Would really benefit from having Dawson making decisions for him but think Dawson's too slow (hope I'm wrong).

Also from what I've seen of Santi, I quite like him and he's no slouch even though he's not a speed merchant. I feel the current personnel lend themselves to a three. Toti looks less of a liability too.

 

[Deano]

Also from what I've seen of Santi, I quite like him and he's no slouch even though he's not a speed merchant. I feel the current personnel lend themselves to a three. Toti looks less of a liability too.

Santi Bueno is extremely slow

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I think given we've conceded 8 in 2 games, safety first isn't a bad option.

We really should be aiming for a clean sheet at all costs, as dull as that is.

 

[The Dude]

Think your timeline is out on Lage mate.

I didn't put a date on Lage's tenure so don't know how my timeline was out. I simply commented that after Coady was let go (ostracized is right btw) then there was no defensive cohesion until Dawson came in, whether that was in a two or a three or under Lage or Davis is immaterial.

When he came in for pre-season 2021 he tried playing a back four, we looked abysmal and we went back to three CHs for the final couple of friendlies. Coady started every single league game in 2021/22 under Lage.

Yeah, I know.

Ahead of 2022/23 he signed Collins and decided he wanted to try a back four again. Because of his appalling man-management he also totally ostracised Coady and more or less forced him to leave. Then Kilman and Collins were an abysmal partnership until the World Cup break.

Until Dawson was signed and Lopetegui was at the helm to be exact.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think they assumed Nathan Fistpumps could be a leader. They assumed wrongly.

In fairness I did want to sign him so stick that one down as a black mark against me too

 

[1986]

I think they assumed Nathan Fistpumps could be a leader. They assumed wrongly.

In fairness I did want to sign him so stick that one down as a black mark against me too

There are signs that he is improving by the way . He has had a few very good performances in recent times and is getting regular first team football.

 

[Tony Towner]

I've never been completely out on Collins, pairing him with Kilman was stupid though amd I can see why we backed the one over the other

 

[1986]

It has been a big help to Collins that Brentford stuck with him as a first choice player even when he was making some dreadful mistakes .
They just let him work his way through them it seemed .
He is still very young and there is a certain allowance you have to make for lack of experience .

 

[Lycan]

Almost a year since I started this thread...

What do we do now?

 

[Kenny]

Cling on for a month then get annoyed at the names being linked to replace him