Notts Forest 1-1 Wolves: Verdict Thread

[MARKakaJIM]

Waiting for him to have a poor game must have hurt Mark. We'd be down already if it wasn't for his performances this season. In some games he's been a one man driving force

Or maybe without him and a different dynamic in the team as a whole you wouldn't be in this predicament at all? There's little dispute he's the most talented player in the squad at the moment but the team is bigger than one man and what works for him doesn't necessarily work for everyone else.

In Nuno's team he was a great fit, he's positionally sound so holds his ground in that defensive block well and then he's got the range of passing to release the counter attack when the opportunity arises. You could see even back then in certain games though where he wasn't as effective when the onus was on Wolves to breakdown a stubborn defence or play through a high press. In those situations his long passing was often negated, his mobility at times exposed, lack of comfort playing in tight areas making it difficult for him to have influence.

Few players are anything approaching perfect, many can look brilliant in one team/position/system and dreadful in another. That's the nature of a team sport and the complex relationships between the individuals within. As with many other players Neves simply isn't all things to all men, I don't think he's the right player to be the beating heart of an assertive, front foot team that wants to dominant possession and drive at opponents at every opportunity. To me he's a safe pair of hands at the wheel, he'll keep things ticking over, though often too slowly for my liking, and then he's got that Hollywood ball in his locker but he's never going to be a guy who's tearing round the pitch leaving markers chasing shadows.

 

[lemonjelly]

the withdrawal of Neves in the Leeds game, and the impact his absence had shows that we are not a better team without Neves.
Had we kept him on, we'd have got a minimum of a draw imo.

 

[Wolftone]

Neves is basically carrying the midfield at times to his own detriment. The fact that he's so 'responsible' means that the attacking side of his game is diminished.
If he and Nunes were used in tandem things might be different.
Numerous times he has to receive the ball from our defence or from Lemina facing our own goal limiting his options with the ball, the times when he is able to play in triangles going forwards he does create opportunities.

 

[prawnking]

Or maybe without him and a different dynamic in the team as a whole you wouldn't be in this predicament at all? There's little dispute he's the most talented player in the squad at the moment but the team is bigger than one man and what works for him doesn't necessarily work for everyone else.

In Nuno's team he was a great fit, he's positionally sound so holds his ground in that defensive block well and then he's got the range of passing to release the counter attack when the opportunity arises. You could see even back then in certain games though where he wasn't as effective when the onus was on Wolves to breakdown a stubborn defence or play through a high press. In those situations his long passing was often negated, his mobility at times exposed, lack of comfort playing in tight areas making it difficult for him to have influence.

Few players are anything approaching perfect, many can look brilliant in one team/position/system and dreadful in another. That's the nature of a team sport and the complex relationships between the individuals within. As with many other players Neves simply isn't all things to all men, I don't think he's the right player to be the beating heart of an assertive, front foot team that wants to dominant possession and drive at opponents at every opportunity. To me he's a safe pair of hands at the wheel, he'll keep things ticking over, though often too slowly for my liking, and then he's got that Hollywood ball in his locker but he's never going to be a guy who's tearing round the pitch leaving markers chasing shadows.

So what's your conclusion? It's not heretical to consider Neves' contributions, but are you saying we bench him? Or use him differently? If the former, who do we replace him with? Nunes hasn't shown he's fit to clean Ruben's boots, and I'm up for Boubacar/J Gomes coming in, but to compliment rather than replace?

Also, it does throw me when you refer to Wolves as 'you' rather than 'we'... Reminds me a bit of Nathan Jones at Southampton

 

[prawnking]

Neves is basically carrying the midfield at times to his own detriment.

He doesn't have to though? We're as well stocked in midfield as we've ever been in the PL under Fosun; Nunes, Lemina and J Gomes, with Moutinho from the bench and Boubacar returning soon?

 

[Jack Regan]

Yep I don't know why we've changed back. When Lemina came in he was receiving the ball from the defence which freed Ruben to be further up the pitch and receive the ball higher up. We've now regressed to where all our midfield are playing on top of each other and the centre halves.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Yep I don't know why we've changed back. When Lemina came in he was receiving the ball from the defence which freed Ruben to be further up the pitch and receive the ball higher up. We've now regressed to where all our midfield are playing on top of each other and the centre halves.

I can't imagine it's an instruction from Lop.

It's just what our midfielders revert to because of their mindset and how the other team set up against us.

 

[Tony Towner]

I can't imagine it's an instruction from Lop.

It's just what our midfielders revert to because of their mindset and how the other team set up against us.

Putting 4 of them in there is on him though

 

[prawnking]

I can't imagine it's an instruction from Lop.

It's just what our midfielders revert to because of their mindset and how the other team set up against us.

When he sees it happening what is he doing about it then? He spends enough time shouting on the sidelines. What's the point of an elite manager if they don't listen to him?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

So what's your conclusion? It's not heretical to consider Neves' contributions, but are you saying we bench him? Or use him differently? If the former, who do we replace him with? Nunes hasn't shown he's fit to clean Ruben's boots, and I'm up for Boubacar/J Gomes coming in, but to compliment rather than replace?

Also, it does throw me when you refer to Wolves as 'you' rather than 'we'... Reminds me a bit of Nathan Jones at Southampton

Why would I use we when I'm not part of it?

As for conclusions, if I were Wolves boss I'd happily sell him if someone offered decent money and use the money to improve other areas whilst looking for a different balance through midfield, and the team as a whole, long term.

In the immediate short term I don't think there's a perfect solution. From Neves' point to view I think a more conservative approach more aligned to what Nuno put in place suits him best, sit deep, don't press, create lots of space high up the pitch to hit those long passes and launch counter attacks. Big problem there being the lack of effectiveness up top in turning those counter attacks into something tangible, that threat isn't there in the way it used to be.

From what I've seen of the Lopetegui era the performances have been best when there are more bodies in advanced areas, I think they helps cloak the shortcomings of the individuals involved. For me that means going two up top, two wide players who aren't always wedded to the touchline and limiting yourself to two of those midfielders who are all seemingly tethered to the middle of their own half. It's not going to be great, you're asking fullbacks with little end product to provide the width, wide players to venture in the Bermuda triangle that appears to exist in front of the edge of every opponents box and hope that one of your misfiring forwards can actually get in the end of something. I'm not sure there's the right balance available in central midfield for that idea, think Lemina/Neves gives you the protection to allow everyone else to commit forwards. Addition of Nunes would theoretically give you more legs to support, not that we've seen much of that in practice from him, in that situation I think I'd retain Lemina as the sole screening player ahead of Neves. Maybe you could go Traore and Neves but not seen much of the former going forwards to know if he can add those legs/support whilst also adding the combatitive element that Lemina does.

It's not so much that I think Neves is trash just that I don't see him as being so much better than the alternatives than he should be exempt from criticism. Wolves are at a level where all of their players are going to be flawed to some extent but the big problem seems to be that so many share similar flaws and so there's a real struggle to create any balance between them.

 

[Jinky]

View attachment 7107

This information is readily available for us to see and to critique so you’d imagine Lop and his team have much more detailed reports and data to essentially tell them the same thing. So why does he persist with the same weird line ups and tactics?

We can all see what the problem is. We have players in the squad that will negate this from happening and we’ve seen it in glimpses since he’s been here, so stop being a muppet and play a coherent side from the start of games!

 

[Del Woppio]

I think Mark raises some fair points - we're not set up to get the best out of Neves. In fact we're set up to negate his key strength, which is accurate long passing. We don't stretch the pitch like we used to, so that ball just isn't there.

Now I absolutely think he's got in him to play shorter, incisive passes through lines to a front three/four that are moving intelligently, but we just don't do that either

 

[Wolftone]

He doesn't have to though? We're as well stocked in midfield as we've ever been in the PL under Fosun; Nunes, Lemina and J Gomes, with Moutinho from the bench and Boubacar returning soon?

I agree.
That's down to the manager.
Hopefully Bouba and Gomes will be included soon along with Moutinho when necessary.

 

[Lupo]

Breaking: #Wolves forward Daniel Podence has been charged by the FA after allegedly spitting at #nffc Brennan Johnson. Forest also charged with failing to control their players. Forest coach Alan Tate & Wolves Pablo Sanz also charged with improper and/or violent conduct. Phew..

 

[Tony Towner]

He's fucked then. Will play Saturday then that's him done until Everton

 

[PuntsWolf]

Surely we appeal it and he gets off? Think it’s just the FA are charging him as it looks blatant. But then as nothing actually happens then the hearing/appeal will be successful and he will get off?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

If he's charged and doesn't just accept it (he won't, surely) then there has to be a personal hearing before there's any punishment handed down.

 

[darlowolf64]

VAR looked at the incident "cleared" him. Are they saying VAR is shit?

 

[Tony Towner]

Depends on what evidence they have. I can't see how they can charge him based on what we have seen, so you have to assume there's something damning

 

[Del Woppio]

Is it the case that they can punish him on the balance of probability rather than absolute proof? I haven't met a non-Wolves fan that doesn't think it overwhelmingly likely that he spat at him