Lettuce Liz then Tetchy Rish! and the battle to replace him

[Tredman]

Yeah, the whole system is crashing down.

The failure of Thames water is to do with pure mismanagement, the lack of responsible governance and weak leadership. Exactly the same as the train companies. The government has responsibility for this in part as it just doesn't do checks and balances..

What we're seeing is the failure of free market economics not capitalism.

Anybody with half a brain can tell you that free market economics and communism can never work.

I’d say it’s not mis-management, Thames management below board below is pretty good. It’s totally as a result of Maquarie’s actions in 2006, it’s not a failing it’s neglect and profiteering.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Private sector shouldn't be anywhere near human necessities.

 

[Tredman]

Private sector shouldn't be anywhere near human necessities.

Like food?

 

[Templeton Peck]

Like food?

Private sector is fine where there's choice - which there is when it comes to food. Water, gas, electricity and trains - not so much.

 

[Tredman]

Private sector is fine where there's choice - which there is when it comes to food. Water, gas, electricity and trains - not so much.

That's very simplistic.

Water privatisation was done very badly but if you ask anyone who worked in a water utility pre and post privatisation they will tell you things are MUCH better now than they were. If we still had 40%+ leakage for example you would have been very unlikely to be able to turn the tap on last week and have water.

 

[nimrod]

I’d say it’s not mis-management, Thames management below board below is pretty good. It’s totally as a result of Maquarie’s actions in 2006, it’s not a failing it’s neglect and profiteering.

neglect and profiteering sounds like systemic failure in the private model in which the regulator is inadvertently (I'd hope) complicit.

it's a while back but if I recall Macquarie's stake in Cadent valued the Company at £13.5bn when it's regulatory asset base was only £8.5bn. So to get the level of return out they'll expect who knows what strategy they'll pursue with the energy regulator.

 

[Tredman]

neglect and profiteering sounds like systemic failure in the private model in which the regulator is inadvertently (I'd hope) complicit.

it's a while back but if I recall Macquarie's stake in Cadent valued the Company at £13.5bn when it's regulatory asset base was only £8.5bn. So to get the level of return out they'll expect who knows what strategy they'll pursue with the energy regulator.

Macquarie are total shit-heels - vampire kangeroo bank was/is their nickname IIRC?

The private model has definitely failed, but it doesn't necessarily follow that blanket nationalisation will be better

 

[pr0sl0]

Privatising water was always cuckoo. People can't shop around for a different provider, it's an essential service everyone needs access to, and the profit motive directly clashes with the incentive to prioritise investment in infrastructure.

Kind of the sine qua non of UK privatisation failure over the last 40 years, even more so than railways. Taxes paid by taxpayers rebranded as product fees paid by customers, with revenues skimmed off and paid out to shareholders instead of reinvested into critical infrastructure. As much as staid old nationalised industries needed shaking out of their bureaucratic stupour, replacing one bureaucracy with another was always an ideological choice instead of one based on empirical evidence of new management structures necessarily working more efficiently or anything like that.

Feels like the whole country is crumbling, and so much of it comes down to the prioritisation of (perceived or actual) short-term benefits over longer-term ones - a lot of repair bills are all coming due at once. Labour had their version with PPI, and austerity was never anything more than trying to pay off an overdraft with a credit card. See also the "pause" to HS2 for another classic example of how this stuff just keeps happening.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

There's not a huge amount of new information in it but worth watching Ben Elton's programme on C4 about the railways, such an unholy pointless mess.

 

[Keef]

Privatising water was always cuckoo. People can't shop around for a different provider, it's an essential service everyone needs access to, and the profit motive directly clashes with the incentive to prioritise investment in infrastructure.

Kind of the sine qua non of UK privatisation failure over the last 40 years, even more so than railways. Taxes paid by taxpayers rebranded as product fees paid by customers, with revenues skimmed off and paid out to shareholders instead of reinvested into critical infrastructure. As much as staid old nationalised industries needed shaking out of their bureaucratic stupour, replacing one bureaucracy with another was always an ideological choice instead of one based on empirical evidence of new management structures necessarily working more efficiently or anything like that.

Feels like the whole country is crumbling, and so much of it comes down to the prioritisation of (perceived or actual) short-term benefits over longer-term ones - a lot of repair bills are all coming due at once. Labour had their version with PPI, and austerity was never anything more than trying to pay off an overdraft with a credit card. See also the "pause" to HS2 for another classic example of how this stuff just keeps happening.

I’d go for the crumbling infrastructure as a sign of everything was sold off, and all the money that could be coming back into the economy goes out to shareholders.
It costs money to run water, gas, electric, trains, but if they were state owned the money stays in the country.
We are probably at the point of the tories having nothing else to sell off to make a few quid for their mates.

 

[Johnny75]

Privatising water was always cuckoo. People can't shop around for a different provider, it's an essential service everyone needs access to, and the profit motive directly clashes with the incentive to prioritise investment in infrastructure.

Kind of the sine qua non of UK privatisation failure over the last 40 years, even more so than railways. Taxes paid by taxpayers rebranded as product fees paid by customers, with revenues skimmed off and paid out to shareholders instead of reinvested into critical infrastructure. As much as staid old nationalised industries needed shaking out of their bureaucratic stupour, replacing one bureaucracy with another was always an ideological choice instead of one based on empirical evidence of new management structures necessarily working more efficiently or anything like that.

Feels like the whole country is crumbling, and so much of it comes down to the prioritisation of (perceived or actual) short-term benefits over longer-term ones - a lot of repair bills are all coming due at once. Labour had their version with PPI, and austerity was never anything more than trying to pay off an overdraft with a credit card. See also the "pause" to HS2 for another classic example of how this stuff just keeps happening.

There's some misty eyed nonsense going on about how good nationalised industries were (not aimed at you particularly).

They were fucking shit, run badly by jobs for the boys shitheels who regularly covered stuff up.

Somebody mentioned it at the top of the page, privatisation only works if there is an independent regulator with teeth.

 

[Tredman]

There's some misty eyed nonsense going on about how good nationalised industries were (not aimed at you particularly).

They were fucking shit, run badly by jobs for the boys shitheels who regularly covered stuff up.

Somebody mentioned it at the top of the page, privatisation only works if there is an independent regulator with teeth.

OfWat have teeth but the bit people miss is they are an economic regulator, for example I suspect a lot of the reason investors want to get out of Thames is:



The problem is that the environmental regulator (pick whichever one you want) was decimated by the Austerity government. Package that by the advent of EDMs shining a light on a problem which has always been there and you have the perfect shit storm

 

[pr0sl0]

There's some misty eyed nonsense going on about how good nationalised industries were (not aimed at you particularly).

They were fucking shit, run badly by jobs for the boys shitheels who regularly covered stuff up.

Somebody mentioned it at the top of the page, privatisation only works if there is an independent regulator with teeth.

Yeah, lots of nostalgia all over the place. One of the more interesting things I remember from just after Leave won the referendum was during a discussion about how British voters had gone against the the trend of the last half century and voted for radical change over the status quo - one writer (I wish I could remember who) pointed out that, actually, if you looked at the demographic split in old vs young in the vote, what happened was a revolt by a generation whose "status quo" was set during their 20s and 30s, and who were therefore voting against a 45-year experiment they felt had failed.

It's an argument I have a lot of time for, and I think nostalgia over nationalisation vs the failures of privatisation definitely plays into that dynamic too considering how consistently polls of the UKIP segment of the right tends to want left(ish) economic policies married with regressive social policies. They like their Rail like they like their neighbours - Bri'ish.

 

[nimrod]

Macquarie are total shit-heels - vampire kangeroo bank was/is their nickname IIRC?

The private model has definitely failed, but it doesn't necessarily follow that blanket nationalisation will be better

any calls for nationalisation are an inevitable consequence of current failures. no reason you couldn’t use other models, part public ownership. I imagine the current model will always create these problems eventually because of optimism bias in acquisitions driving up return requirements and creating conflicts between user groups that management can never resolve - consumers, owners, regulator, gvt, operation & maintenance teams.

I wonder what the options are. If the Company can’t raise money, is it going bust and is that a good option (for the country)? Presumably the model would allow Gvt/regulator to step in at some point (without assuming the liabilities of the company).

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think the most damning indictment of the railways was the East Coast Mainline.

National Express made an absolute bollocks of it and it had to be forcibly renationalised before it became completely unworkable. Running as East Coast (but it was basically the Department for Transport) it suddenly started working really well (within reason) and actually generated revenues. Then they hand it to Virgin East Coast, who again can't make it work properly, start defaulting on franchise payments, and it has to go back to the Government aka LNER. How much more of a shining example do you need that this does not fucking work.

Avanti West Coast have been nothing short of a disgrace since they took the Virgin West Coast routes and I pity anyone who has to use either TransPennine or South Eastern services regularly.

 

[lemonjelly]

There's not a huge amount of new information in it but worth watching Ben Elton's programme on C4 about the railways, such an unholy pointless mess.

yes, caught this the other evening and thought it was fantastic.

 

[lemonjelly]

rwanda policy deemed unlawful by the courts.
Telling how wedded the tories are to it, by initially arguing they need to save money on the costs of asylum seekers, then it turns out this policy will cost over 60k more per individual, but they intended to press on. This the so-called party that is good with finances.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Not my words Carol, the words of Feargal Sharkey

Taxpayer cash must not be used to bail out Thames Water, says Feargal Sharkey

Campaigner says firm should be brought under public control using powers in original privatisation legislation

www.theguardian.com

 

[Tredman]

any calls for nationalisation are an inevitable consequence of current failures. no reason you couldn’t use other models, part public ownership. I imagine the current model will always create these problems eventually because of optimism bias in acquisitions driving up return requirements and creating conflicts between user groups that management can never resolve - consumers, owners, regulator, gvt, operation & maintenance teams.

I wonder what the options are. If the Company can’t raise money, is it going bust and is that a good option (for the country)? Presumably the model would allow Gvt/regulator to step in at some point (without assuming the liabilities of the company).

For sure, I think the concession model operated for water in a lot of countries has a load going for it.

 

[Sniffer]

After being told by the appeal court that it is unlawful to send people to Rwanda little Rishi has said that he fundamentally disagrees with the judgement. The bankers final words in his statement is...

The policy of this government is very simple, it is this country – and your government – who should decide who comes here, not criminal gangs. And I will do whatever is necessary to make that happen.

What has that got to do with it being unlawful to send people to Rwanda?