Keir Starmer at it again..

[Elephant Pyjamas]

It might well be better for all if the left actually split and formed their own party as I can’t see any chance of a reconciliation.

Yes i totally agree, it'd be the best for everyone.

I'm not so sure who centrists are anymore though, where were all the centrist votes in 2010 and 2015? Corbyn got more people to vote for him in 17 and 19 than those centrists leaders did.

I think we're just a right wing country now (maybe we always have been), but i don't think Starmer's slightly less blue version of the Tories will see him elected, if people want Tories, they'll vote Tory, pretending to be nationalist and pro Brexit isn't fooling anyone.

Starmer's best chance is that people are simply bored with the Tories after what will be 14 years, that may be his best hope, and is possibly why he has been so insipid.

 

[lemonjelly]

all this arguing over the fact labour are a split party. lets not forget that camerons party was split, and his attempt to heal the split resulted in fucking brexit...

the conservative party have never been really united. moreso now than ever. Certainly for the past 6 years they have all been positioning themselves to be leader elect.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

all this arguing over the fact labour are a split party. lets not forget that camerons party was split, and his attempt to heal the split resulted in fucking brexit...

the conservative party have never been really united. moreso now than ever. Certainly for the past 6 years they have all been positioning themselves to be leader elect.

The Tories have never self sabotaged the way that Labour did in 2017 though, they always pull together at the end. Look at the way they all pull together over the most inane bullshit, like Cummings for example, or school meals, they will argue even the most ludicrous points away if they are told to, Labour have rarely (ever?) been the same.

 

[Paul]

I think we're just a right wing country now (maybe we always have been), but i don't think Starmer's slightly less blue version of the Tories will see him elected, if people want Tories, they'll vote Tory, pretending to be nationalist and pro Brexit isn't fooling anyone.

Starmer's best chance is that people are simply bored with the Tories after what will be 14 years, that may be his best hope, and is possibly why he has been so insipid.

Look there's been, what, 5 labour PM's since the 17th Century, so really centrist is the only way you will ever govern, surely it'd be better to get in and then take it from there? (even TP has said he'd vote Labour and I think I noticed that he's overly enamoured with the current regime), clinging to a Utopia that will forever be impotent, although admirable is ultimately foolhardy.

 

[Johnny75]

Look there's been, what, 5 labour PM's since the 17th Century, so really centrist is the only way you will ever govern, surely it'd be better to get in and then take it from there? (even TP has said he'd vote Labour and I think I noticed that he's overly enamoured with the current regime), clinging to a Utopia that will forever be impotent, although admirable is ultimately foolhardy.

I wonder if that's why people on the far left play the victim card so much.

It must be dispiriting to know that your version of politics will never be popular and that the majority of the population of the UK simply don't like socialism or the idea of it.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Look there's been, what, 5 labour PM's since the 17th Century, so really centrist is the only way you will ever govern, surely it'd be better to get in and then take it from there? (even TP has said he'd vote Labour and I think I noticed that he's overly enamoured with the current regime), clinging to a Utopia that will forever be impotent, although admirable is ultimately foolhardy.

Not sure how that response is relevant to anything that i've said?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I think that electoral history shows that far left isn’t popular with the electorate that decides who gets to scrap Carrie Antionette’s refurbishment job in a couple of years. I’m fifty soon. Wilson was PM when I was a toddler. Callaghan took over when I was in pre school and hung around until I went into Juniors. After that I was 25 when Blair got Labour back in.

Foot tried fairly hard left policy and got absolutely gubbed by Thatcher. Corbyn did the same and handed an 80 seat majority to a blithering imbecile.

There may well be much that is laudable in the left wing policy, but it is patently unelectable. You have to go centre left in order to get elected.

Sitting outside power for eternity but feeling morally beatific seems a pointless exercise.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Sitting outside power for eternity but feeling morally beatific seems a pointless exercise.

Who is saying that?

Both you and Paul are now making a point that isn't relevant to the conversation? I said myself we live in a right wing country!?!

 

[Johnny75]

Who is saying that?

Both you and Paul are now making a point that isn't relevant to the conversation? I said myself we live in a right wing country!?!

We don't live in a right wing country, we live in a centrist country.

Which is the point they're making.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Maybe I didn’t express it in the right way. I’ll try again.

The impression that I get (and this is personal to me so you or mileage may vary) is that for Momentum and their ilk, the actual policy itself in a manifesto is more important than the appeal of that manifesto to the electorate they need to convince. There seems to be a constant striving to find some nirvana of a pure socialism that the electorate just don’t seem to want.

Maybe this is a bit of a right wing country. But there are plenty of centrist Conservatives horrified by the current cabal that a centre left Labour Party could appeal to, but the policies of Momentum will repulse them.

There also feels like an element of there being an ability to have the really out there policies because they know they won’t get elected and shouting the odds from the outside of power is actually easier than implementing policy from power.

I would like a Labour Party in power which is why I am happy to see what Starmer does over the next however many months in the run up to the next election. If he fails I am sure there will be a leadership contest and then the far left may get another go. And I will hold my nose and still vote for them as the lesser evil results in the current cunts being thrown out of office.

The key HAS to be removal of the Conservative administration and pie in the sky utopian dreams of policy have been shown to be woeful at attaining that objective.

 

[lemonjelly]

We don't live in a right wing country, we live in a centrist country.

Which is the point they're making.

we do live in a right wing country (imo).
there are those of a left leaning persuasion, and i think the argument being made is there are sufficient centrist conservatives who would consider a labour party that wasn't too far left leaning.

Around 75% of mainstream media is right leaning/focused. It's an older metric, but if you looked at newspaper circulation, the vast majority of newspapers are more right leaning. Some are more right than others.

Similarly, there are far more right leaning political parties, and these are bigger. Look at the combined vote of the conservatives and ukip/brexit party as a proportion of the population in recent times.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

Obviously it could be skewed depending on who took the surveys, but this would suggest that Labour’s policies in 2019 were popular enough. I think it’s people’s perception of a Labour government that is the problem more than the actual policies themselves. Corbyn could probably have put anything in his manifesto and he still wouldn’t have won.

https://voteforpolicies.org.uk/survey/2019-results/#/country/england

 

[Tony Towner]

I don't think we are right wing by design, we are fundamentally selfish, xenophobic and dare I say gullible which the right wing can easily play to

 

[lemonjelly]

I think it is too ingrained in our culture, and social norms.
I'd argue the being fundamentally selfish, xenophobic and gullible are social constructs that have been built and re-enforced over time.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Centre left policies are always popular until you attach Labour to them. The media has done its job well.

If you accept much of the current status quo and only demand tweaks, you're not centrist you're centre-right.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

If you want to win floating voters and they are the keys to Downing Street then the centre is really REALLY important. Fat Alex has utterly abandoned the centre to be extremely right wing and he won because Get Brexit Done appealed to the leave voters.

The next election Brexit may have a very different colour on things as it will be palpably shown to be a shitfest. But the Conservatives will still be over at the far right.

Grab the centre ground and Labour can win. Or at least get in a position to form a coalition. Polarise politics by going hard left and chunks of the centre ground voters will stay away from the two main parties, and that will not help Labour win, especially with Scotland lost to the SNP.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Centre left policies are always popular until you attach Labour to them. The media has done its job well.

If you accept much of the current status quo and only demand tweaks, you're not centrist you're centre-right.

I disagree profoundly with the second paragraph. You are looking at it through the kaleidoscope of your own political position. It’s like a person from Preston is a northerner to me, but almost a midlander for a bloke living in Carlisle.

 

[Tredman]

Labour left behind their traditional voters, they are unlikely to get a large proportion of them back. It doesn’t have to be terminal - they can go after the voters who the tories left behind with their ideological brexit push, couple that with floating voters and their new base of the ‘intelligensia’ and they can win. Probably needs a coalition with the libs and snp though..

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Labour left behind their traditional voters, they are unlikely to get a large proportion of them back. It doesn’t have to be terminal - they can go after the voters who the tories left behind with their ideological brexit push, couple that with floating voters and their new base of the ‘intelligensia’ and they can win. Probably needs a coalition with the libs and snp though..

That’s where I am at. SNP would obviously ask for Indyref2 as a condition which probably would happen. Not sure what the liberals would want. Basically not to take all the shit for bad things in the coalition would be an improvement on their time in bed with dishface and Gideon. I’m sure Caroline Lucas will place the likely one Green Party seat into the coalition for some environmental policies too. Not sure what Plaid would do as I don’t think Welsh independence is a winning issue in the principality yet.

Also, if the next election is properly close, no way Boris can rely on the DUP after the way Brexit has utterly shafted them.

 

[Tony Towner]

The first thing any coalition should do is pass legislation for a meaningful version of PR, so that half the country aren't disenfranchised. Not the joke version that Clegg's thirst for relevance signed off on