Keir Starmer at it again..

[Johnny75]

I've seen a video of the aftermath where he's standing over him, shouting 'you won't threaten an mp again will you' or words to that effect, but tbh he sounded absolutely battered to me

He certainly looked hammered but it also looked like he knew the guy.

 

[Templeton Peck]

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Oh dear! That looks really bloody unfortunate now!

 

[jd1981]

He should resign really, feeling threatened well many people do on a daily basis but don’t react that way. It’s simple you walk away from the threat.

 

[EpsomWolf]

Hardly surprising the right are going to be all over this. Inevitably going to be comparisons made between sentences, but I think he’s going to have to get both barrels as some sort of appeasement.

Going to be interesting to see if he gets a lesser violent disorder sentence on the basis he wasn’t on a ‘violent protest’, but that’ll just add fuel to the fire.

Puts Starmer in a very sticky spot either way.

 

[Tony Towner]

Hardly surprising the right are going to be all over this. Inevitably going to be comparisons made between sentences, but I think he’s going to have to get both barrels as some sort of appeasement.

Going to be interesting to see if he gets a lesser violent disorder sentence on the basis he wasn’t on a ‘violent protest’, but that’ll just add fuel to the fire.

Puts Starmer in a very sticky spot either way.

It can't be violent disorder, that's a multiple person offence.

 

[Johnny75]

He should resign really, feeling threatened well many people do on a daily basis but don’t react that way. It’s simple you walk away from the threat.

Reductive rubbish.

 

[jd1981]

Reductive rubbish.

Yet again read back what you write before posting.
Something like “that’s a bit to simplified so I don’t agree” makes for a far better discussion.
It really isn’t rubbish walk away, regardless of what said the natural reaction isn’t to smack someone in the mouth then go onto hit them repeatedly. Video evidence is pretty damming and mitigating isn’t getting you out of this one.
End of the day you work in public office and position of trust so reacting like this isn’t reasonable.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

If he tries to run a provocation defence it will be a very hard road indeed. First you need to show the provocation happened, and then it is the man on the Clapham omnibus test about whether the reaction provoked was proportionate and acceptable.

Not seeing a lot of either in the pictures released so far.

 

[jd1981]

If he tries to run a provocation defence it will be a very hard road indeed. First you need to show the provocation happened, and then it is the man on the Clapham omnibus test about whether the reaction provoked was proportionate and acceptable.

Not seeing a lot of either in the pictures released so far.

No you unless there’s audio then he’s struggling, it’s all on body language.
The alleged victim is stood with arms by his side.
Also claiming being threatened isn’t going to stand up considering he came back to shout at the person when they were on the ground.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

The most famous provocation defence was a bloke who came home to find a burglar raping his wife in the kitchen so smacked the bastard round the head with a saucepan as it was the nearest thing to hand and killed him

Reaction has to be immediate, proportionate to the threat, and reasonable to carry out.

I think he has no chance.

 

[Johnny75]

Yet again read back what you write before posting.
Something like “that’s a bit to simplified so I don’t agree” makes for a far better discussion.
It really isn’t rubbish walk away, regardless of what said the natural reaction isn’t to smack someone in the mouth then go onto hit them repeatedly. Video evidence is pretty damming and mitigating isn’t getting you out of this one.
End of the day you work in public office and position of trust so reacting like this isn’t reasonable.

You have no idea what the context is for why that has happened. Maybe listen to that first before posting your reductive rubbish as advice.

 

[Del Woppio]

Agree he should resign immediately tbh, it's not self defence, it's a shellacking. The whole 'two-tier' thing is already massive, a common assault charge and the maximum sentence of 6 months isn't going to help that

 

[jd1981]

You have no idea what the context is for why that has happened. Maybe listen to that first before posting your reductive rubbish as advice.

Regardless of the context of what’s said it’s at best mitigation nothing more.
No doubt the recipient of the punch was being less than complimentary, even if he’s made a threat punching him in the face isn’t a proportional response nor are the 5 other punches whilst he’s on the ground.
If he’s so threatened he would have punched him once then been on his toes when he hit the ground, you don’t go back to threat and whack it another 5 times and remain in its presence afterwards to shout at them.

 

[Johnny75]

Regardless of the context of what’s said it’s at best mitigation nothing more.
No doubt the recipient of the punch was being less than complimentary, even if he’s made a threat punching him in the face isn’t a proportional response nor are the 5 other punches whilst he’s on the ground.
If he’s so threatened he would have punched him once then been on his toes when he hit the ground, you don’t go back to threat and whack it another 5 times and remain in its presence afterwards to shout at them.

You don't know who that other person is or why the MP has reacted that way.

The other guy could be the guy who has a restraining order on him for making death threats to the MP.

Neither you nor I know that though so maybe wait until that information comes out.

Your making a judgment and handing out advice based on a video clip. It's reductive.

 

[jd1981]

You don't know who that other person is or why the MP has reacted that way.

The other guy could be the guy who has a restraining order on him for making death threats to the MP.

Neither you nor I know that though so maybe wait until that information comes out.

Your making a judgment and handing out advice based on a video clip. It's reductive.

I’m telling how the law will see it, if it’s possibly someone who’s made death threats against them why has he not phoned the Police?
Again if it is that said person why is he hanging around afterwards when the threat is on the ground and thirdly why has he layed an extra 5 punches on him whilst he’s down? Regardless who’s done or said what he’s gone beyond the line of reasonable force used.

 

[Johnny75]

I’m telling how the law will see it, if it’s possibly someone who’s made death threats against them why has he not phoned the Police?
Again if it is that said person why is he hanging around afterwards when the threat is on the ground and thirdly why has he layed an extra 5 punches on him whilst he’s down? Regardless who’s done or said what he’s gone beyond the line of reasonable force used.

All in your head.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

The issue he has is that if the other bloke (and this is supposition on my part) had engaged in a long campaign of offensive stuff, then that doesn't fulfil the provocation defence for this incident in and of itself, because the reaction isn't immediate, looking at the footage.

Now he could obviously evince evidence of what the man may have said that suggests very bad shit was about to go down, and hey, that might cover the first punch. But, after that, the bloke is on the ground, the possible bad shit hasn't occurred, and isn't going to at that point, so the follow-up punches are pretty hard to describe as provoked by the strict legal defence.

 

[leedswolf]

If he tries to run a provocation defence it will be a very hard road indeed. First you need to show the provocation happened, and then it is the man on the Clapham omnibus test about whether the reaction provoked was proportionate and acceptable.

Not seeing a lot of either in the pictures released so far.

I was under the impression that the Clapham omnibus test applies to civil cases?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

You still have reasonable man tests in criminal law which are the same concept.