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Israel-Palestine

visage said:
Which Palestinian non-combatants are being deliberately killed?
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www.theguardian.com

‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli snipers in Gaza

IDF says it ‘completely rejects’ charge that its soldiers deliberately fired on any of the thousands of civilians killed in Israeli offensive
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

'But doctors also reported treating a steady stream of children, elderly people and others who were clearly not combatants with single bullet wounds to the head or chest.

Some of the physicians said that the types and locations of the wounds, and accounts of Palestinians who brought children to the hospital, led them to believe the victims were directly targeted by Israeli troops.

Other doctors said they did not know the circumstances of the shootings but that they were deeply troubled by the number of children who were severely wounded or killed by single gunshots, sometimes by high-calibre bullets causing extensive damage to young bodies.'
 
Del Woppio said:
This is a good one because any tweets or videos are written off as being propaganda, any studies or statistics by amnesty or the like are written off as conspiracy. Then all we're left with is tens of thousands of accidental deaths that were just completely unavoidable
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Im not claiming that huge numbers of Palestinians have been killed. Im querying whether they were specifically targeted. You cant wage war in a densely populated area with correspondingly high collateral damage.

Which is why I have said previously that Israel is obliged to demonstrate that they have taken all necessary steps to minimise those deaths.

The contrast with October 7th is that it was clearly, unambiguously, an attack that deliberately targeted innocent civilians. Thats why I dont think the two are comparable.
 
Again, October 7th was one of the tragedies of my life time, and I'd happily see everybody involved in Guantanamo.

But shouldn't a nation state's army be expected to behave in a better way than a bunch of radical terrorists? I mean let's be real, the IDF and Hamas hate eachother with everything they've got, there's little that they wouldn't do to each other. Hamas have further proven that military, civilian, old, young, male, female...it's all fair game to them. Better off dead.

Do the IDF think any differently of civilians in Gaza? I doubt it. Individually and collectively. We've seen scores of unarmed people killed by bullets in Gaza. Or bombs rain down on tented camps, hospitals and other densely populated sites. Starving aid, cutting off water and electricity, bombs and bullets indiscriminately fired. Don't kid yourself that the IDF care any more about Gazan civilians than Hamas did about Israeli ones.
 
visage said:
Im not claiming that huge numbers of Palestinians have been killed. Im querying whether they were specifically targeted. You cant wage war in a densely populated area with correspondingly high collateral damage.

Which is why I have said previously that Israel is obliged to demonstrate that they have taken all necessary steps to minimise those deaths.

The contrast with October 7th is that it was clearly, unambiguously, an attack that deliberately targeted innocent civilians. Thats why I dont think the two are comparable.
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Are you saying that Israel have met this obligation to demonstrate they have taken all necessary steps?
 
I think most of the problem is that this conflict is a proxy war. Arms not being supplied to either side would help calm this down
 
visage said:
Im not in a position to say. My experience adjudicating on war crimes is as limited as every one elses here.
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So how are you in a position to say the actions of the two sides are not comparable when there is a body that does have experience of adjudicating on war crimes has accused both?
 
Because the thousand people killed on October 7 were civilians, and targeted as such.

There's a hypothesis that Israel does the same, but that's all it is, currently.
 
It's just a loop of ignorance/bias.

Israel refuse to allow press into Gaza > Gazans are killed by the IDF > lack of video provides diplomatic cover. Repeat.

It's staggering tbh. It's impossible to deny that there needs to he investigations into warcrimes, perpetrated by Hamas and the Israeli regime.

Always so keen to make comparisons with October 7th as if not being as overtly savage as Hamas is some sort of flex, or some sort of shield.

I can't believe that a really intelligent bloke doesn't see that. Doesn't see that it's clear many in the IDF are using this quite happily to just go and rampage and demolish a people and a land that aren't even shit on the shoe.
 
Del Woppio said:
It's just a loop of ignorance/bias.

Israel refuse to allow press into Gaza > Gazans are killed by the IDF > lack of video provides diplomatic cover. Repeat.

It's staggering tbh. It's impossible to deny that there needs to he investigations into warcrimes, perpetrated by Hamas and the Israeli regime.

Always so keen to make comparisons with October 7th as if not being as overtly savage as Hamas is some sort of flex, or some sort of shield.

I can't believe that a really intelligent bloke doesn't see that. Doesn't see that it's clear many in the IDF are using this quite happily to just go and rampage and demolish a people and a land that aren't even shit on the shoe.
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I just don't get the willingness to accept every Hamas assertion as fact while every IDF assertion is a lie.

Has the IDF committed war crimes? Almost certainly. But there's a mechanism to hold them to account. Vote out Likud, for a start.

What's the mechanism to hold Hamas to account?

This is my fundamental issue. Anything Israel or the IDF might have done doesn't mitigate what Hamas did on October 7. And Israel won't accept any solution that doesn't involve consequences.

So any arguments that it was just a reaction to historical injustices arent going to work.

You can't envisage a peace without considering the venn diagram of what each side is prepared to accept.
 
If someone says the moon is made of cheese I say 'Show me the evidence'. I'm not rejecting the premise, I'm saying the burden if proof is in the person making the assertion.

And, given the seriousness of war crimes, we should be equally serious about the burden of proof.

Also, Hamas have a track record of firing unguided rockets at civilian populations. Is that a war crime? Are there mitigating circumstances?
 
It just sometimes feels like an Israeli sneezes near a Palestinian and it's biological warfare, but firing hundreds of rockets at Tel Aviv is 'legitimate protest'.
 
visage said:
I just don't get the willingness to accept every Hamas assertion as fact while every IDF assertion is a lie.
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Who's doing that? They're both as untrustworthy as each other
visage said:
Has the IDF committed war crimes? Almost certainly. But there's a mechanism to hold them to account. Vote out Likud, for a start.

What's the mechanism to hold Hamas to account?
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Well unfortunately the ICC is toothless, as ideally I'd like UN boots on the ground to arrest surviving Hamas leaders & terrorists and several members of the government and armed forces so that they may face justice. Id imagine most of Hamas are dead, as are their families. New recruits of course are inevitable.

visage said:
This is my fundamental issue. Anything Israel or the IDF might have done doesn't mitigate what Hamas did on October 7. And Israel won't accept any solution that doesn't involve consequences.

So any arguments that it was just a reaction to historical injustices arent going to work.

You can't envisage a peace without considering the venn diagram of what each side is prepared to accept.
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Do you think Netanyahu and others will ever face a courtroom?
 
Elephant Pyjamas said:
45,000 people have been killed!? 18,000 of them children!
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Gaza has a population of 2.2 million. If, as some would suggest, Israel had spent the last 18 months committing genocide, wouldn't they have killed more than 2% of the population, given the obvious military disparity?

If Israel wanted to eliminate Gaza they could do it on day one.
 
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