• Welcome, guest!

    This is a forum devoted to discussion of Wolverhampton Wanderers.
    Why not sign up and contribute? Registered members get a fully ad-free experience!

Israel-Palestine

Alan said:
It’s really hard for me to take pro-Israel stances seriously given how blatantly they hold and wield power over the Palestinian people.

We’re talking about a government that has targeted civilian hospitals. A government that says “we’re being careful” whilst murdering tens of thousands of innocent people. There is no argument for preserving the Israeli state as-is that holds water in my mind.
Click to expand...
Couple of points. Im not especially pro-Israel. I just sometimes point out that there are often double standards at play. Ive visited the place with work on multiple occasions, so I have a little insight into their mentality. Greater understanding is never a bad thing.

Secondly, regarding the civilian deaths point. War is messy. Theres no way to wage war in a way that only bad people die. 3 million German civillians died in WW2, that doesnt make the war wrong, or immoral. It doesnt make it wrong to have fought Hitler. And equally nobody realistically suggested that Germany should cease to exist because of the actions of its government.

I will absolutely temper that, however, with the fact that proportionality is a keystone of international war, and Israel is absolutely obliged to justify their acts, which do not appear proportional. I not going to condemn them simply on the basis of what Hamas or their proxies claim though - and when they use the Palestinian people as de facto human shields they have no right to complain about the consequential civilian deaths.
 
Well, I guess if we’re bringing out the Nazi Germany analogies then we’ve reached the logical end of the road.

“War is messy” is a terrible argument, full stop. Particularly when it is the side with the overwhelming advantage in funding, weaponry, and training instigating said messiness. Pulling Hitler out as the parallel for justifying the loss of innocent lives also feels like a bad faith argument on principle.
 
Alan said:
Well, I guess if we’re bringing out the Nazi Germany analogies then we’ve reached the logical end of the road.

“War is messy” is a terrible argument, full stop. Particularly when it is the side with the overwhelming advantage in funding, weaponry, and training instigating said messiness. Pulling Hitler out as the parallel for justifying the loss of innocent lives also feels like a bad faith argument on principle.
Click to expand...
You're right. Nazi Germany was a virulently antisemitic regime with an ideological obsession with wiping out Jewish people.

Totally different to Hamas, right, who are just misunderstood.
 
Out of interest, how should Israel have responded to October 7th, in your view?

Laugh it off as banter?
 
1738864654310.png

Brilliant. So the US/Israel just evict 2 million Palestinans from their homeland and what? They just go 'Well, I guess its part of Israel now and we just have to accept it'?

Im going to gently suggest that, based on literally the entire history of the area that that isnt going to fly.
 
visage said:
Out of interest, how should Israel have responded to October 7th, in your view?

Laugh it off as banter?
Click to expand...
Obviously not, but what they’ve done in response is utterly disgusting and left nearly the entire Strip in ruins.

This conflict did not begin on October 7th. That cannot be emphasized enough. You can label Hamas as Nazi-equivalents if you like, but it’s a completely false parallel; Israel has had a boot on Palestine for decades, they are the power in the region, which the innocent Jews of central and Eastern Europe were patently not.

Hamas as a political entity is a direct response of the real oppression of the Palestinian people by Israel, not the imagined oppression conjured by the Nazis to justify their genocides.

You cannot point at Trump and say “forcefully evicting the Palestinians is stupid” when Israel have been blatantly attempting the same, violently so, for years.
 
You see, this line of argument gets dangerously close to saying that the thousand people who died that day had it coming because of the historical actions of their government.
 
visage said:
Out of interest, how should Israel have responded to October 7th, in your view?

Laugh it off as banter?
Click to expand...
And how should the Palestinian people have responded to decades of living effectly under Israeli rule?

This didn't all start on October the 7th, I keep seeing that suggestion.

Edit: Alan put it far more eloquently than I.
 
EdgeOfTheAlps said:
Similar to what you're saying about the innocent Palestinians dying because of the actions of Hamas?

Ffs
Click to expand...
When Hamas uses Palestinians as human shields, then yes, I absolutely think that Hamas bears some culpability for their deaths.

You disagree?
 
Elephant Pyjamas said:
And how should the Palestinian people have responded to decades of living effectly under Israeli rule?

This didn't all start on October the 7th, I keep seeing that suggestion.

Edit: Alan put it far more eloquently than I.
Click to expand...
They could respond by not murdering a thousand innocent people.

Maybe I'm just being old fashioned here, thinking that such acts can't be justified.
 
visage said:
They could respond by not murdering a thousand innocent people.

Maybe I'm just being old fashioned here, thinking that such acts can't be justified.
Click to expand...
Also, it wasn't your every day Palestinian bloke who killed those thousand people. It was Hamas who were responsible.

We didn't carpet bomb Ireland because of the IRA did we? (Clumsy comparison, but you get my point)
 
Just to remove any doubt, I want to be clear that being pro-Palestine is not to be pro-Hamas.

I don’t want more Israelis dead, much as I don’t want more Palestinians dead. I don’t need the Israeli state to be dissolved, even. What I do need is for Israel to stop treating its neighbors like impounded dogs.
 
Hamas embedding themselves amongst the civilian population makes collateral deaths impossible to avoid...which is why they do it, obviously.

I think it's naive to think that in this scenario Israel would just let them get away with it.
 
Alan said:
Just to remove any doubt, I want to be clear that being pro-Palestine is not to be pro-Hamas.

I don’t want more Israelis dead, much as I don’t want more Palestinians dead. I don’t need the Israeli state to be dissolved, even. What I do need is for Israel to stop treating its neighbors like impounded dogs.
Click to expand...
If you know of some magical way to eradicate Hamas without collateral damage id love to hear it.
 
visage said:
If you know of some magical way to eradicate Hamas without collateral damage id love to hear it.
Click to expand...
I can tell you that murdering innocent people because they’re in between you and your target sure as shit won’t make the extremism go away, even if it reappears under a different name.

Israel could start by removing Hamas’ key ammunition when Palestinian civilians: the raids, forced evictions, and kidnappings performed and supported by the IDF that have carried on for decades, which there is no defense for.

I pray you never find yourself unwittingly next to an extremist that the authorities don’t mind offing you to get to. If your recourse is to kill thousands of children, sorry, you don’t get to play the high road.

Extremism does not grow in a vacuum.
 
Alan said:
I can tell you that murdering innocent people because they’re in between you and your target sure as shit won’t make the extremism go away, even if it reappears under a different name.

Israel could start by removing Hamas’ key ammunition when Palestinian civilians: the raids, forced evictions, and kidnappings performed and supported by the IDF that have carried on for decades, which there is no defense for.

I pray you never find yourself unwittingly next to an extremist that the authorities don’t mind offing you to get to. If your recourse is to kill thousands of children, sorry, you don’t get to play the high road.

Extremism does not grow in a vacuum.
Click to expand...
What about murdering innocent people for the crime of being Jewish?

You think if Israel was a little nicer to Palestinians then Hamas (and by extension Iran) will stop hating Israel? These are people whose specific goal on October 7th was to kill as many jewish people as they could find.

There can be no peace while Hamas exist.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top