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Israel-Palestine

“If you ban guns, bad people will still get them, so no point banning them”

And yes, I think an end to some of Israel’s violent and indiscriminate excursions into Palestine would make people less likely to sign up for a terrorist organization.
 
Tredman said:
Hamas only exist because of the ever increasing expansion of Israel though.
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The years prior to October 7th saw unprecedent steps towards peace between Israel and its neighbours in the region. Hamas responded by murdering over 1000 Israelis in a single day.
 
Alan said:
“If you ban guns, bad people will still get them, so no point banning them”

And yes, I think an end to some of Israel’s violent and indiscriminate excursions into Palestine would make people less likely to sign up for a terrorist organization.
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So when Palestinians die, its Israels fault.

And when Israelis die its also Israels fault?

At which point do we start to blame terrorists for committing terrorist acts?

I wouldnt tolerate 'He made me do it' as an excuse from my kids, so im certainly not going to take it from Hamas or their apologists.
 
Don’t call me a Hamas apologist just because I understand that oppression breeds rebellion.

I’m done with this conversation. You can overvalue individuality if you like, but don’t pretend that terrorism is an inborn trait, and don’t pretend that what Israel has done is not itself terrorism.

Oh, and you can’t argue against “he made me do it” whilst simultaneously saying Hamas made Israel kill tens of thousands of people who have nothing to do with Hamas.
 
Would you agree that there's a difference between civilian deaths as collateral damage in a military operation, compared with civilian deaths that are the main goal of a military operation?
 
I don’t think I would, no.

Death is death, whether through malicious intent or malicious negligence.

Roughly 1,000 Israelis died on October 7th. Since, just over 45,000 Palestinians have been killed. Is 1 Israeli killed by Hamas worth 45 Palestinians killed by the IDF?
 
Alan said:
I don’t think I would, no.

Death is death, whether through malicious intent or malicious negligence.

Roughly 1,000 Israelis died on October 7th. Since, just over 45,000 Palestinians have been killed. Is 1 Israeli killed by Hamas worth 45 Palestinians killed by the IDF?
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That's ridiculous. You see no distinction between the German officers who killed people as part of the Shish versus the Allied offucers who killed people on D Day?

Most people would say deliberately killing non combatants is a red line.
 
visage said:
Would you agree that there's a difference between civilian deaths as collateral damage in a military operation, compared with civilian deaths that are the main goal of a military operation?
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This ain't collateral damage. Its a long fucking way from that.
 
visage said:
That's ridiculous. You see no distinction between the German officers who killed people as part of the Shish versus the Allied offucers who killed people on D Day?

Most people would say deliberately killing non combatants is a red line.
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Unless those non-combatants are Palestinians, it seems.
 
Hamas are ruthless terrorists, guilty of horrific crimes against humanity. They are murderers and extremists, a major obstacle to any just, two-state solution that could allow Israelis and Palestinians to coexist in peace. I'd be quite happy for it to be destroyed and for the Palestian people to be rid of them and the terror they cause. And every word of that is equally true of the IDF.

I reject the term "collateral damage" when describing the civilian deaths in this invasion. Collateral damage implies unintended, unavoidable loss—tragic but accidental. That’s not what’s happening here. Most of these deaths aren’t accidental, nor are they regretted. They are the objective.

The bombing campaign makes that clear. Tens of thousands of pounds of unguided bombs dropped without precision, without regard for whether they kill a terrorist, a child, a hostage, or a civilian. They don’t know who they’re killing—and they don’t care. And for those who survive the bombs, there’s drones picking off civilians in the rubble, sniping indiscriminately long after the initial strike. The IDF, Hamas and Israeli government are all fucking evil, they're all murderers, they're all detestable.
 
visage said:
Would you agree that there's a difference between civilian deaths as collateral damage in a military operation, compared with civilian deaths that are the main goal of a military operation?
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Just a polite interruption about the bigger picture.

1. Have you read about the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the ensuing Balfour Declaration in 1917? It was an imperialist statement from the UK government to Lord Rothschild interfering in the land and lives of the people in Palestine. Drafts were discussed by the British Cabinet with input from Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews but with no representation from the local population in Palestine.

That is the initial cause of this continuing situation and not any of the multitude of atrocities. And, the same attitude to the local indigenous communities prevails on every continent over 100 years later.

You can see the Declaration here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

2. I also suggest you read the historical record as you appear overly focused on the most recent atrocity.

Try scanning through this and it is only starting in 1948:

Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

We are going nowhere with one-eyed positions and we as one human race never seem to learn.
 
Wellen Wolf said:
Just a polite interruption about the bigger picture.

1. Have you read about the fall of the Ottoman Empire and the ensuing Balfour Declaration in 1917? It was an imperialist statement from the UK government to Lord Rothschild interfering in the land and lives of the people in Palestine. Drafts were discussed by the British Cabinet with input from Zionist and anti-Zionist Jews but with no representation from the local population in Palestine.

That is the initial cause of this continuing situation and not any of the multitude of atrocities. And, the same attitude to the local indigenous communities prevails on every continent over 100 years later.

You can see the Declaration here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration

2. I also suggest you read the historical record as you appear overly focused on the most recent atrocity.

Try scanning through this and it is only starting in 1948:

Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

We are going nowhere with one-eyed positions and we as one human race never seem to learn.
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TBF all of this (and more) was raised and discussed earlier in the thread.
 
visage said:
Which Palestinian non-combatants are being deliberately killed?
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This is a good one because any tweets or videos are written off as being propaganda, any studies or statistics by amnesty or the like are written off as conspiracy. Then all we're left with is tens of thousands of accidental deaths that were just completely unavoidable
 
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