Hillsborough

[Kenny]

I am pleased that at last the truth has come out, now I wait for policemen to be charged, but I will not hold my breath...

A start

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19592455

 

[playtheace]

I am pleased that at last the truth has come out, now I wait for policemen to be charged, but I will not hold my breath...

I would be amazed if any coppers are charged...
100+ changed their statements and did any come forward in the intervening years to say that theyd been doctored?

Imagine everything those coppers have done since that may have put people inside....field day for the lawyers.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I would be amazed if any coppers are charged...
100+ changed their statements and did any come forward in the intervening years to say that theyd been doctored?

Imagine everything those coppers have done since that may have put people inside....field day for the lawyers.

There was a South Yorkshire police officer on a radio 5 yesterday, he called the programme to say that he had checked the released documents and found one of his statements had been amended - he said that this had been done without his knowledge.

One or the Hillsborough parents was on later and was really angry that none of the police officers had blown the whistle (one has, earlier this year).

There is clearly a difference of opinion here and I am not sure whether all the police officers knew. Some, it seems, did as they were pressured into changing their statements but I think it is going to need further investigation to uncover who knew what and I really hope they've (the state and law) got the balls to keep going on this until they have uncovered everything.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Not strictly true that 100+ changed their statements. They had their statements changed for definite, but it isn't clear whether they were redacted without the knowledge of the witness, or if pressure was brought to bear to make them change it. The final statements were not in the Taylor report, only excerpts so it would be hard to know for sure that your statement had been changed from reading that document. What I am saying is that the individual policemen were unlikely to be covering up, but the senior policemen putting the statements together definitely were.

 

[playtheace]

And yet one of the senior policemen says he knows nothing of statements being changed!!..amazing.

Its all very very shady.....someone, very quickly decided the force and others needed to cover themselves and i hope it all comes out...this shouldnt be brushed under the carpet...
A week ago it sounded unreal that this goes all the way to the top, but who cant doubt that now.
Also, the fact that the our dodgy force (ahem...at the time) oversaw the police enquiry later on is laughable.

 

[Johnny75]

Not strictly true that 100+ changed their statements. They had their statements changed for definite, but it isn't clear whether they were redacted without the knowledge of the witness, or if pressure was brought to bear to make them change it. The final statements were not in the Taylor report, only excerpts so it would be hard to know for sure that your statement had been changed from reading that document. What I am saying is that the individual policemen were unlikely to be covering up, but the senior policemen putting the statements together definitely were.

Watching some of the police officers being interviewed on various news outlets last night it seems the police lawyers actually forced the statement changes and told them what to say, could they be charged? Or would they blame the senior officers, of which 3 are dead?

I am still not completely clear how the West Midlands Police are implicated in this and I notice the WM Serious Crime squad were involved and they have been disbanded now because of falsifying statements.

 

[Lord Knows]

Any inquiry by one Police force about another Police force stays hidden within the Police force.

 

[Jeb01]

A disgrace

You can access the Panel Report online - mind you it is some 370 pages long, but the first 170 pages or so are enough. Just about every official organisation associated with the semi final at Hillsborough failed in some way to exercise their duty of care. Sheff Weds FC repeatedly failed to upgrade safety at the ground because of the cost. The FA knew full well that the ground was unsafe for capacity crowds - there were serious injuries eg broken bones and crushing injuries (but no fatalities) to a number of Spurs fans at the Wolves semi in 1981; and further similar crushing incidents at semi final games in 1987 and 1988.

When the draw was made for the semi in 1989 the L'pool secretary immediately rang the FA to ask that if Hillsborough was chosen for their game that they be allocated the larger Spion Kop end, a request turned down by South Yorkshire Police (SYP) even tho' all knew that there would be a greater demand for tickets from L'pool.

After the deaths at the 1989 game SYP almost immediately began to lie about the causes, and their briefings to a local press agency and the local MP resulted in their lies becoming "The Truth" - as The Sun headline put it. Even now, 23 years later, and judging by some of the remarks on this thresd, some of that mud still sticks.

The basic cause of the tragedy was that the police lost control of the situation. Vital communication links either failed or were not in place at all. For example the police commander on the ground inside the stadium had no communication with the commander on the ground outside the stadium, and neither was aware that the pressure of the crowds both inside and outside was reaching critical levels. The commander outside the ground requested the gates to be opened to relieve the intense crush at the turnstiles. The overall commander in the Control Box agreed, and to the horror of the police inside the ground the crowds poured into the already dangerously packed central pens in front of them, which is when people started to die.

The Ambulance Service (with no crowd control responsibilities) were equally slow in responding and or to realise that a major incident was unfolding in front of their eyes - and later also took care to blame others for their own negligence.

It must be devastating to the families to learn, after all this time, that up to 41 of the victims might have been resuscitated, but due to the almost complete chaos and lack of any leadership from senior police for well over an hour (during which it was left to individual coppers, stewards, and fans to try to save people) they never had that chance.

The Coroners Inquest was also a disgrace.

If you have time, do try to access and read the Panel's report. One thing is for certain - the search for scapegoats is well and truly on.

 

[Premier Quality]

Scoring political points at a time like this helps nobody not least the last government who could have released the report earlier as LK said. If he was so concerned about it at the time why didn't he say anythign it's not like the families have only been doing this for the time the coalition has been in power. Put your party politics aside for once eh.

absolutely - none of the parties come out of this looking clever.

 

[Adrian Peckham Monk]

I think you're being terrible naive and yes i do know a lot about this 'disaster'. If you think it was or is that easy to control a crowd even if you have 'eyes everywhere' then you are mistaken. The police made mistakes, the media made mistakes, the coroner made mistakes and yes many people in the crowd made mistakes. the Taylor Report was, as always, after the event.

The issue is the police and FA made mistakes through negligence. The match controller was inexperienced, a ground without a safety certificate that had a history of previous crowd control issues was chosen for the game, insufficient resources were provided for the game and those that were provisioned were there to control hooliganism and not the safety of the crowd.

I have a question for the legal eagles amongst you: now the investigating police force have been found to be essentially falsifying evidence, could a scenario exist where every conviction resulting from the work of these officers be potentially retrialed if precedence is set with Hillsborough?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The issue is the police and FA made mistakes through negligence. The match controller was inexperienced, a ground without a safety certificate that had a history of previous crowd control issues was chosen for the game, insufficient resources were provided for the game and those that were provisioned were there to control hooliganism and not the safety of the crowd.

I have a question for the legal eagles amongst you: now the investigating police force have been found to be essentially falsifying evidence, could a scenario exist where every conviction resulting from the work of these officers be potentially retrialed if precedence is set with Hillsborough?

Think there woud still need too some prima facie evidence that similar might have occurred in other cases.

 

[Templeton Peck]

And yet one of the senior policemen says he knows nothing of statements being changed!!..amazing.
Its all very very shady.....someone, very quickly decided the force and others needed to cover themselves and i hope it all comes out...this shouldnt be brushed under the carpet...
A week ago it sounded unreal that this goes all the way to the top, but who cant doubt that now.
Also, the fact that the our dodgy force (ahem...at the time) oversaw the police enquiry later on is laughable.

Otherwise known as 'The Murdoch Defence'.

 

[Langers]

Jimmy McGovern's film about Hillsborough starring Christopher Ecclestone and Ricky Tomlinson was on the other night.

Really powerful stuff - and quite eye opening especially after this new report.

 

[Templeton Peck]

I can't imagine the contents of the report were a surprise to anyone who had dealing with police at football in the late 80s and early 90s. I used to think police were great as a kid and when I started going to footy aged 10 I saw no reason to think otherwise. As I got older at about 14 I started to notice a change in the way they spoke to you - the kindly tone had been replaced with commands and swearwords. There's a moment in the Hillsborough drama where a fan tells a copper its getting a bit full and the cop responds with 'shut you're fucking prattle'. A typical response to a young male football fan at the time.

 

[Sniffer]

I saw a documentary on the history channel last night which was the 20th anniversary of the disaster. The mother of the two Hicks girls that passed away was at the game and attended the hospital later that evening after her husband had travelled to the hospital with one of the girls. She was sat in the seats whilst the husband and the girls were on the terrace. When she got to the hospital she was refused in her request to see her daughters body because it had already been identified. She was told that the body now belonged to the Coroner of Sheffield.

 

[Templeton Peck]

http://daveboyle.net/opinion/sweet-fa/

Seen and not heard is a great description of how football wishes supporters to behave. The mentality hasn't changed a great deal sicne 1989 either. Sit in your over priced seat, buy the replica shirt and when things go badly don't dare criticise or complain - just 'get behind the team'.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

A couple of quotes from the late 80's I read over the weekend with regard to the view of football fans at the time

Sunday Times editorial "a slum sport played in slum stadiums increasingly watched by slum people"
Economist "irredeemably tied to the old industrial north, yobs and slum culture of the stricken inner cities"

Attitudes like this and as mentioned by several people earlier, fans at the time were treated as shit, going to and from games, couldn't even watch the game properly because of a great big fucking fence in the way and all as potential hooligans* and the government wanting to bring in an ID scheme before you could go to a game.
(*I admit some people when treated as animals started acting that way)

 

[Langers]

Everton FC - take a bow.

What a wonderful moment that was - very emotional.

 

[Del Woppio]

Missed it, what did they do?

 

[Langers]

From BBC Text:

1958:

The names of those who died at Hillsborough are displayed on the big screen at Goodison as 'He Ain't Heavy, He's My Brother' by the Hollies is played out.

The message 'Merseyside United' is shown - a very emotional moment.

1956:

The teams are led out on to the pitch by two mascots, one in a Liverpool shirt and one in an Everton shirt with the numbers '9' and '6' respectively on the back. It is a lovely touch met by stirring applause from the Goodison stands. Kick-off just moments away now.