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Hillsborough

Because the side pens were empty. The terrace as a whole held 11,400. There were 6,000 in the two pens involved.
 
MARKakaJIM said:
If the Police should've been able to see that the stand was full and thus stopped more fans coming in, doesn't that contradict their statement that there was no real problem with un-ticketed fans entering the ground?

How else would you end up with more fans in there than you should have?
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“The disaster was caused by the fact that the majority of fans entering the terraces headed for the central pens 3 and 4. Normally a police officer or steward would direct fans away from full pens, but on the day this did not happen. The official capacity of these pens was around 2000, however the Health and Safety Executive later found that this should have been reduced to around 1600 as the crush barriers did not conform to the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds 1986. It is estimated that the number of people in these pens shortly after kick off at 3.00pm was over 3000. This overcrowding caused the fatal crush.”
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This isn't new information - this was detailed in the original report. The police should have directed supporters into the other, less crowded pens. They didn't.
 
Moving this to other sports gents
 
Plus your ticket would just say "leppings lane terrace". No mention of which bit. The natural reaction is to get close to the goal, just like I used to do on the old south bank.
 
OldGoldnBlack said:
I was at the Wolves - Spurs semi at Hillsborough, and remember it vividly.

We could see the Leppings Lane End filling up, and my old man remarked then that there was a serious risk of people dying if something wasn't done. I think the Police/Groundstaff opened some cattlegates that helped to eliviate the crush, but I can't be sure of that. Clearly, whatever lessons could have been learned that day eluded those supposedley in positions of resposnsibility.

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I was there and they did open gates to alleviate the crush. However as the report today shows that was not the first incident of it's kind.

It had occured as early as 1981, and the stadium was a disaster waiting to happen.

I have just spent an hour reading the summary , as slowly and as carefully as possible, I suggest that Malta and Marka do they same before they post any more appalling comments, based on personal opinion and no experience of crowds and crowd control before all seater stadiums.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/

BASICALLY......
The ground was actually unsafe, with safety permits not issued.
The Police and SWFC disagreed over crowd numbers, and what the priority was.
The SYP believed they were there to stop hooliganism and to hell with everything else.
The anbulance crews summoned did not apply the correct serious emergency procedures, possibly resulting in deaths after the 3.15pm cut off, where victims could have been ressucitated had the correct personnel and equipment been present.

there's lots more, so Malta and Marka please read it.

the most damning of all is the fact that SYP solicitors and specially selected teams of officers, doctored statements from police officers at the scene that were in anyway critical of the response from their leaders, and the general fuck up the police made of the whole thing, and they also advised (coached officers) on what to say, and what not to say to the Taylor enquiry.

I have been involved in loads of crushes at games over the years, many in the north bank in the days when it was half wolves supporters and half away fans.
When the opposition fans hooligans charged the wolves hooligans, inevitably the crowd moved back, and then forward again.
Fair enough that was hooliganism, but this report states clearly that the delay in getting into the ground was caused by painfully slow and totally ineffective turnstiles and totally inefficient access for a stand that size.
Apart from one or two knob heads, there is CCTV evidence to show that the Liverpool fans were not badly behaved other than getting pissed off about still being outside when the game had already started.
Sheffield Wednesday and South Yorkshire police have a lot to answer for, and so does the MP who forwarded the reports of drunken Liverpool hooligans, robbing bodies and pissing on police and emergency service workers to the press agency based on the comments of a few senior police officers in the pub on the night after the game.
Unfounded, totally fabricated and insubstantiated bullshit.

Wetrher you like liverpool fans or not, from what i have just painstakingly read, on this occassion they are right, and in my opinon a few high ranking people should be prosecuted for this appalling mess.
 
Anyone who watched football in the seventies and eighties would probably confirm that Hillsborough was a disaster waiting to happen.

Drunken yobs causing mayhem in town centres
Fans turning up at the last minute demanding instant entry into grounds.
Poor facilities.
Inadequate Policing and Stewarding.
Fans treated like cattle

The blame game is easy, but in my opinion the blame lies at the door of everyone connected with football. We were all at fault for allowing things to get so bad that a disaster was bound to occur.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
This isn't new information - this was detailed in the original report. The police should have directed supporters into the other, less crowded pens. They didn't.
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That's what i thought it would actually be, just certain sections being full and still having more people coming in, but in your post you mentioned the stand being full so just thought i'd clear it up, would've been one hell of a sloppy mistake/inaccuracy to have in such a report.
 
MARKakaJIM said:
That's what i thought it would actually be, just certain sections being full and still having more people coming in, but in your post you mentioned the stand being full so just thought i'd clear it up, would've been one hell of a sloppy mistake/inaccuracy to have in such a report.
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Sorry mate, but if you weren't even aware of the distribution of people in the pens in the stand (something which has been documented time and time again for years) then it shows you really haven't informed yourself of even the basic facts surrounding this disaster before coming on here and posting inflammatory and offensive remarks which fly in the face of the incontravertible evidence published today. You're usually a sensible poster, but you've got this one completely wrong.
 
MARKakaJIM said:
That's what i thought it would actually be, just certain sections being full and still having more people coming in, but in your post you mentioned the stand being full so just thought i'd clear it up, would've been one hell of a sloppy mistake/inaccuracy to have in such a report.
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If you look at the image below..
Even after many fans were herded into those central pens...the lines in yellow and green (the radial fences) should have had their doors opened to allow fans into either of the side pens...(walk across the back of the entire stand if you will)
Apparently this was one of the rules in allowing that terrace to be used.
For some reason those gates were locked.

As said above, unless you attended football at that time its quite unimaginable to think how things were and how shit you were treated...completely different times.

For instance..police used to regularly come into the main singing part of the southbank to throw someone out for ridiculous things like pushing! (happened to me twice and id just pay back in).
And then usually one of the coppers would get battered and he would lose some of his uniform.
west-terrace.jpg
 
Reports saying FA Chairman has issued an apology to Liverpool and the Liverpool fans for selecting Hillsborough as a suitable ground when they knew it wasn't. It angers me that these people knew that then and have done for the last 20 odd years and they had to wait for an inquiry to admit it. There are some absolutely despicable scum at the top of our supposedly most respected institutions.
 
Johnny75 said:
Reports saying FA Chairman has issued an apology to Liverpool and the Liverpool fans for selecting Hillsborough as a suitable ground when they knew it wasn't. It angers me that these people knew that then and have done for the last 20 odd years and they had to wait for an inquiry to admit it. There are some absolutely despicable scum at the top of our supposedly most respected institutions.
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Indeed, the leppings lane end had exactly the same problems some years before when wolves played tottenham at hillsborough and many tottenham fans were crushed, just on a lesser extent. A lucky escape which failed to act as a warning.
 
Plus the 1988 semi with Liverpool in that end was ample warning that Hillsborough was very unsafe, and there was also a crush problem at the 1987 semi between Leeds and Coventry. That terrace had no safety certificate for a reason. Reading the report it is abundantly clear that the Fire Brigade had been warning about it since before 1981.
 
I have a question:

Why select Hillsborough for a semi final venue between Wolves and Spurs? Its not like Sheffield is situated between Wolverhampton and London? So both sets of fans have to travel north to an unsuitable stadium. It doesn't make sense to me. Was it due to capacity or something? or TV facilities?
 
We wouldn't normally be given Villa Park*, Spurs wouldn't normally get Highbury

That left Hillsborough and Old Trafford. Choose Old Trafford and both sets of fans are on the same trains.

From what I can see it wouldn't have been capacity. I think Old Trafford held around 55,000 at the time, whereas Hillsborough held 52,000.

*second edit - we were given Villa Park in 1979 against Arsenal so that is odd. Spurs also got Highbury at some point by the look of it. Confused. The other semi was Manchester City v Ipswich and they were given Villa Park in 1981. Looking at it, there would have been some sense in having that game at Hillsborough or Elland Road, and our game at Villa Park.
 
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Paddingtonwolf said:
We wouldn't normally be given Villa Park We did in 1979 vs Arsenal, Spurs wouldn't normally get Highbury Except for the replay in 81

That left Hillsborough and Old Trafford. Choose Old Trafford and both sets of fans are on the same trains.
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Proximity to one set of supporters shouldn't be an issue. It creates less problems because one set of fans has less distance to travel (as long as the ticket allocation is fair of course).
 
See later edit Sniffer and Laws.

I cannot see the logic of not having our game at Villa Park that year then. Spurs have a 90 minute journey into New Street and we are coming from the opposite direction. Man City could easily get to the Yorkshire venues by car and train and it wouldn't have been that much longer a journey for Ipswich.
 
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It may also have something to do with complaints from the clubs. I know that Wolves thought that Highbury was a lucky ground and that we didn't object to the replay being held there in 1981.

Tottenham may have complained against Villa Park.
 
Johnny75 said:
Reports saying FA Chairman has issued an apology to Liverpool and the Liverpool fans for selecting Hillsborough as a suitable ground when they knew it wasn't. It angers me that these people knew that then and have done for the last 20 odd years and they had to wait for an inquiry to admit it. There are some absolutely despicable scum at the top of our supposedly most respected institutions.
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All parties were scared of the compensation claims hence the reason why it has taken 23 years for the FA to apologise for hosting a showpiece event at a stadium without a safety certificate.
 
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