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All Season Tickets holders can claim a free scarf. Voucher being sent out by the club to STH's

Another nice gesture by the club. If any of you buggers don't want a scarf then feel free to sent your vouchers my way as I've got a couple of kids who'd love a brand new Wolves scarf ;)
 
That's what the EFL have said. There wasn't a recruitment process so thy couldn't have. Likewise for Zenga they allowed for 'special circumstances'. I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that we have 'failed' the Rooney Rule this season, we volunteered to trial it, we weren't obliged as far I am aware.

It's just a shame that people have such a negative view towards the idea of giving those disadvantaged opportunities. There is a hegemony of whiteness in football and I'm shocked people do not see that.

I personally support the Rooney Rule, though It has its flaws as it is positive action which is badly needed. More importantly though we need to tackle the issue of the FA council which is full of middle aged, middle class white males who couldn't give a shit about minirities, nor can they have any empathy either.

Which ethnic minority manager should we have appointed instead of Nuno? Paul Ince? Sol Campbell? Terry Connor? I haven't heard anybody against giving equal opportunities, sometimes it really could just be down to the fact that the available candidates aren't very good. I'm shocked you can't see that.
 
I can't see how the Rooney rule could ever work in football but I do understand the need to get more people from all backgrounds into football and to make it a truly level playing field (excuse the pun). I also do not agree with your hegemony of whiteness in football (is it different to any other job?) and you are doing a classic THM thing of linking white people to not giving people an opportunity and that isn't on. Just because I'm white do you really think I'm against anybody else having an equal opportunity?

However your attack on the age and colour of the FA does you no favours as that is discriminatory in itself and I don't understand how you can stand by your last comment unless you know the people personally.

I don't doubt the FA is under represented by all sorts of groups, not least background, race, age and gender but singling out white middle class males is not the way to go. It's
tawdry and obstructive.

of course it can work - it needs people to take it seriously. I think clubs are afraid of having a transparent process of which the Rooney Rule is all about. How is there not a hegemony of whiteness? The game is ran by white, middle class, middle aged game and currently beat serves that exact demographic? I don't understand how that is disputable?

I have actually had a meeting with the chairman of the FA himself only months ago where he actually told me that his demographic who currently run the game is the issue and he understood the irony in it himself. Fair play to him, he's been trying to drive through some positive action but it has been met by resistance. I think his two predecessors left for exactly the same reason? Greg Dyke certainly did. the FA council have constantly blocked reforms much to people's frustration. Heather Rabbatts herself has left her role for these reasons which is a great shame. How is what I'm saying wrong? It's a disgrace that this is the case in 2017. The FA are a joke. And when they face criticism their reaction is pathetic (some of which I have seen first hand)

We can not just simply go on allowing the game to be run like this. It's frankly shameful. At no point have I told you that you are against people having an equal opportinity.
 
The FA is actually run by upper class, white, old men at the County FAs... I'm white middle class and nothing like those fuckers, Youngie!
 
Which ethnic minority manager should we have appointed instead of Nuno? Paul Ince? Sol Campbell? Terry Connor? I haven't heard anybody against giving equal opportunities, sometimes it really could just be down to the fact that the available candidates aren't very good. I'm shocked you can't see that.

Jesus wept. The EFL said (and I have pointed this out) because there wasn't a recruitment process then they couldn't have interviewed a BAME candidate.

The idea that there aren't any BAME coaches good enough is equally as insulting, I think. This is the issue, aspiring coaches have been put off applying because they don't think they will get an interview. I've given this example many times on here (and we are going in circles again) but I talked to a coach who had applied for countless league 1, 2 and conference jobs with a pro license couldn't even get an interview. He said he didn't want to be handed a job but the opportunity to convince someone of his ideas and philosophy. Yet he was getting nothing.

As I have said, I don't think the Rooney Rule is without it's flaws. But I am a supporter of positive action and I see this is the best option currently. Instead of making a bit of a mockery of it though I think clubs need to be working with the EFL and other organisations on how we can beat implemwnt it. At academy level this process has seen positive developments. Additionally, the FA have a very good bursary scheme for BAME coaches ran by Kevin Coleman which hand in hand with a Rooney Rule will, IMO, see progress. So that is a good start but it means little if we can tackle the issue of who is governing the game as they will not represent people whose needs are not being met
 
I don't support and never will any form of discrimination, positive or negative. We have made vast strides to eradicate these problems in this country over the last 30 years and certainly from a playing perspective race hasn't held anyone back. The days of people throwing bananas and making monkey noises are long gone (in the UK at least) and I don't believe for a second in modern football that a retiring black player would have less of a chance of getting a coaching job if they applied for it.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
 
I don't support and never will any form of discrimination, positive or negative. We have made vast strides to eradicate these problems in this country over the last 30 years and certainly from a playing perspective race hasn't held anyone back. The days of people throwing bananas and making monkey noises are long gone (in the UK at least) and I don't believe for a second in modern football that a retiring black player would have less of a chance of getting a coaching job if they applied for it.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

So despite YW's first hand account you still close your eyes and think an equality of opportunity exists?

Here's the thing, racism and discrimination is in a constant battle to stay relevant. It evolves, it might not be acceptable to throw bananas anymore but the discrimination has become more insidious and has put barriers in the way of those wanting to coach.

You can map the explicit racism of society in the decades ago with the explicit racism on the terraces of that time.

You can now map the structural discrimination of the present day with the institutional racism/discrimination within football.
 
So despite YW's first hand account you still close your eyes and think an equality of opportunity exists?

Here's the thing, racism and discrimination is in a constant battle to stay relevant. It evolves, it might not be acceptable to throw bananas anymore but the discrimination has become more insidious and has put barriers in the way of those wanting to coach.

You can map the explicit racism of society in the decades ago with the explicit racism on the terraces of that time.

You can now map the structural discrimination of the present day with the institutional racism/discrimination within football.
I am sure there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. There seems to be a culture at the moment that if a white guy gets the job it's because he is privileged, if the black guy doesn't get it it must be institutional racism.

Don't get me wrong I do believe it exists but I don't see it being an issue at club level, Paul Ince didn't get the job because he is shit, I think we can all agree on that yet multiple times he has claimed it is because of the colour of his skin. Should we then take Paul's anecdotal account as fact and take action? Of course not.

We will never completely eradicate discrimination and a don't believe giving token interviews to a specific ethnic group helps with anything.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk
 
I don't support and never will any form of discrimination, positive or negative. We have made vast strides to eradicate these problems in this country over the last 30 years and certainly from a playing perspective race hasn't held anyone back. The days of people throwing bananas and making monkey noises are long gone (in the UK at least) and I don't believe for a second in modern football that a retiring black player would have less of a chance of getting a coaching job if they applied for it.

Sent from my HTC 10 using Tapatalk

With all due respect, this is only something that someone who's never been at the wrong end of systemic discrimination would think counts as "equality".

The playing field isn't level, and football - including English football - is institutionally racist. The fact that something as mild as the Rooney Rule (which only guarantees a single interview slot for a BAME candidate) is resisted so passionately is just one illustration of that fact.

Positive discrimination initiatives like this are used because they address and compensate for the many other stages in a person's life and career where issues like racism have been inescapable and effective. That's just as true for football as it is for, say, university applications, or designated seats for women on corporate boards. They are a very minor band-aid over a much larger problem which takes a lot of work over years and decades to fully address on a social- and national-scale, and, as crude as they are, they do work.

It's also well worth addressing your point here about black players, because I hear variants of this argument a lot. British football players are disproportionately likely to be black in the UK - there are multiple factors influencing why that is, but the key one is that professional footballers are overwhelmingly drawn from working class communities, and, in the UK, black people are generally poorer than white. Having so many black players is actually an indicator of racial inequality; and, similarly, the fact that so few of them are able to make the jump to coaching (and positions of more significant power) is in turn an indicator of where the power still lies in British and English football.

I know it's fun to laugh at Ince, because he's a muppet, but we really need to listen to black players who want to become coaches but who are told that they're not respected enough to be given that kind of responsibility. They're not moaning for no reason, they're identifying a real problem that the FA and other authorities are too slow to respond to. Again, the Rooney Rule is *extremely* mild as a form of positive action, and it's not even mandatory - it's an optional trial that a handful of clubs have taken on board.

As to the specific case with Wolves, it's a little tricky. Part of the reason for the Rule being specifically for British coaches is that the FA wants to address the fact that England doesn't produce top-quality managers and coaches any more, and hasn't for many years now - so their concern is for British candidates in general, and I get that they don't see Nuno as qualifying here. But I think there are some tweaks you could do to adjust for the structural differences between the UK and the US, where teams do habitually interview candidates for coaching jobs. Maybe have an offset system - if you want to hire a specific candidate, you have to compensate for not interviewing a BAME candidate by offering a coaching job elsewhere in your setup specifically for BAME candidates. Considering how often the argument against it is "well, these black players need to get their badges and work hard as coaches to get in a position to be considered for top managerial roles", it would address the real bottleneck here in the UK - there aren't enough black coaches being hired in academies and as lower-down backroom staff to even start the process of working up to more important roles.

I mean, fuck, we're talking about Paul Ince *yet again*. The fact that the only black managerial candidate regularly interviewed at Championship level is Paul Ince should be proof enough that this is a serious problem - he's been out of work as a manager for half of the last decade, but he's still the only black candidate that most fans recognise, that most clubs interview, that gets interviewed in the press about this issue, when there are dozens, hundreds probably, of black former players screaming and shouting about this issue but not being listened to despite the evidence being right there for all to see.
 
As to the specific case with Wolves, it's a little tricky. Part of the reason for the Rule being specifically for British coaches is that the FA wants to address the fact that England doesn't produce top-quality managers and coaches any more, and hasn't for many years now - so their concern is for British candidates in general, and I get that they don't see Nuno as qualifying here. But I think there are some tweaks you could do to adjust for the structural differences between the UK and the US, where teams do habitually interview candidates for coaching jobs. Maybe have an offset system - if you want to hire a specific candidate, you have to compensate for not interviewing a BAME candidate by offering a coaching job elsewhere in your setup specifically for BAME candidates. Considering how often the argument against it is "well, these black players need to get their badges and work hard as coaches to get in a position to be considered for top managerial roles", it would address the real bottleneck here in the UK - there aren't enough black coaches being hired in academies and as lower-down backroom staff to even start the process of working up to more important roles.

We've just done that though.

I agree with a system being set up to encourage more people from BAME backgrounds to progress in coaching, because it isn't happening organically. I strongly object to Wolves being slagged off along the way. This is not something you can pin on us. How long were Terry Connor and Tony Daley employed at first team level?
 
"It's also well worth addressing your point here about black players, because I hear variants of this argument a lot. British football players are disproportionately likely to be black in the UK - there are multiple factors influencing why that is, but the key one is that professional footballers are overwhelmingly drawn from working class communities, and, in the UK, black people are generally poorer than white. Having so many black players is actually an indicator of racial inequality;"

Although I agree with your post as a whole, I do struggle with this sentence, is this proven or just your theory ?
 
Jesus wept. The EFL said (and I have pointed this out) because there wasn't a recruitment process then they couldn't have interviewed a BAME candidate.

The idea that there aren't any BAME coaches good enough is equally as insulting, I think. This is the issue, aspiring coaches have been put off applying because they don't think they will get an interview. I've given this example many times on here (and we are going in circles again) but I talked to a coach who had applied for countless league 1, 2 and conference jobs with a pro license couldn't even get an interview. He said he didn't want to be handed a job but the opportunity to convince someone of his ideas and philosophy. Yet he was getting nothing.

As I have said, I don't think the Rooney Rule is without it's flaws. But I am a supporter of positive action and I see this is the best option currently. Instead of making a bit of a mockery of it though I think clubs need to be working with the EFL and other organisations on how we can beat implemwnt it. At academy level this process has seen positive developments. Additionally, the FA have a very good bursary scheme for BAME coaches ran by Kevin Coleman which hand in hand with a Rooney Rule will, IMO, see progress. So that is a good start but it means little if we can tackle the issue of who is governing the game as they will not represent people whose needs are not being met

I imagine that goes for all people and whilst I do not dispute that racism exists in football clubs I think a lot of it is based on the sheer ignorance of choosing an experienced manager who once played. Educate the chairmen and you'll get better coaches of all ethnicities. Football looks at ex-players getting into coaching, why not people of all backgrounds? Currently there has been One appointment of English people that have never played professional football in England appointed as manager, is that not a problem, is this closed shop ever going to admit other people into this closed shop? Why are there no women coaches in the mens game? Coaching is coaching and should not be limited to anybody. Football is a backwards game in terms of recruitment so the Rooney rule for me is a sticking plaster to treat an amputation.

I still take umbrage over your comment of white middle aged men ruling the game. Your class mark isn't correct as 60-year old, private school educated Greg Clark can only be described as white, upper class and aged. This type of person is the only person that is represented in all FA's and so a lack of diversity is the problem.

You are attacking a set of people on their colour, age and class and I'm sad that you cannot see that is the same as attacking any other. Should we exclude all white, middle aged men from all managerial and FA board appointments in doing so ensuring that nobody from a white, middle class background has no aspirations of joining the FA. Closing that avenue off for a large majority of the population?
 
So despite YW's first hand account you still close your eyes and think an equality of opportunity exists?

Here's the thing, racism and discrimination is in a constant battle to stay relevant. It evolves, it might not be acceptable to throw bananas anymore but the discrimination has become more insidious and has put barriers in the way of those wanting to coach.

You can map the explicit racism of society in the decades ago with the explicit racism on the terraces of that time.

You can now map the structural discrimination of the present day with the institutional racism/discrimination within football.

I'll ask you and the wider community:

What makes you think ex-players will be good coaches? Would an electrician be any good at running the National Grid?

It's a complete red herring for people to equate playing ability with management otherwise Gullit and Saunders would be good at it and they just aren't. It's bollocks and has nothing to do with ethnicity. If football can't see that in itself is discrimination it may as well give up.
 
With all due respect, this is only something that someone who's never been at the wrong end of systemic discrimination would think counts as "equality".

The playing field isn't level, and football - including English football - is institutionally racist. The fact that something as mild as the Rooney Rule (which only guarantees a single interview slot for a BAME candidate) is resisted so passionately is just one illustration of that fact.

Positive discrimination initiatives like this are used because they address and compensate for the many other stages in a person's life and career where issues like racism have been inescapable and effective. That's just as true for football as it is for, say, university applications, or designated seats for women on corporate boards. They are a very minor band-aid over a much larger problem which takes a lot of work over years and decades to fully address on a social- and national-scale, and, as crude as they are, they do work.

It's also well worth addressing your point here about black players, because I hear variants of this argument a lot. British football players are disproportionately likely to be black in the UK - there are multiple factors influencing why that is, but the key one is that professional footballers are overwhelmingly drawn from working class communities, and, in the UK, black people are generally poorer than white. Having so many black players is actually an indicator of racial inequality; and, similarly, the fact that so few of them are able to make the jump to coaching (and positions of more significant power) is in turn an indicator of where the power still lies in British and English football.

I know it's fun to laugh at Ince, because he's a muppet, but we really need to listen to black players who want to become coaches but who are told that they're not respected enough to be given that kind of responsibility. They're not moaning for no reason, they're identifying a real problem that the FA and other authorities are too slow to respond to. Again, the Rooney Rule is *extremely* mild as a form of positive action, and it's not even mandatory - it's an optional trial that a handful of clubs have taken on board.

As to the specific case with Wolves, it's a little tricky. Part of the reason for the Rule being specifically for British coaches is that the FA wants to address the fact that England doesn't produce top-quality managers and coaches any more, and hasn't for many years now - so their concern is for British candidates in general, and I get that they don't see Nuno as qualifying here. But I think there are some tweaks you could do to adjust for the structural differences between the UK and the US, where teams do habitually interview candidates for coaching jobs. Maybe have an offset system - if you want to hire a specific candidate, you have to compensate for not interviewing a BAME candidate by offering a coaching job elsewhere in your setup specifically for BAME candidates. Considering how often the argument against it is "well, these black players need to get their badges and work hard as coaches to get in a position to be considered for top managerial roles", it would address the real bottleneck here in the UK - there aren't enough black coaches being hired in academies and as lower-down backroom staff to even start the process of working up to more important roles.

I mean, $#@!, we're talking about Paul Ince *yet again*. The fact that the only black managerial candidate regularly interviewed at Championship level is Paul Ince should be proof enough that this is a serious problem - he's been out of work as a manager for half of the last decade, but he's still the only black candidate that most fans recognise, that most clubs interview, that gets interviewed in the press about this issue, when there are dozens, hundreds probably, of black former players screaming and shouting about this issue but not being listened to despite the evidence being right there for all to see.

Being a player is no indication of being a coach. If the FA wanted to get better coaches it would stop the pool being limited to ex-fucking-players. Most of whom couldn't coach a child to drink from a plastic cup.

Open up the appointments of coaches to all, make sure there is progression for those that have never played the game. Until the FA stop the old boys network we will always be scraping the barrel for coaches.
 
I imagine that goes for all people and whilst I do not dispute that racism exists in football clubs I think a lot of it is based on the sheer ignorance of choosing an experienced manager who once played. Educate the chairmen and you'll get better coaches of all ethnicities. Football looks at ex-players getting into coaching, why not people of all backgrounds? Currently there has been One appointment of English people that have never played professional football in England appointed as manager, is that not a problem, is this closed shop ever going to admit other people into this closed shop? Why are there no women coaches in the mens game? Coaching is coaching and should not be limited to anybody. Football is a backwards game in terms of recruitment so the Rooney rule for me is a sticking plaster to treat an amputation.

I still take umbrage over your comment of white middle aged men ruling the game. Your class mark isn't correct as 60-year old, private school educated Greg Clark can only be described as white, upper class and aged. This type of person is the only person that is represented in all FA's and so a lack of diversity is the problem.

You are attacking a set of people on their colour, age and class and I'm sad that you cannot see that is the same as attacking any other. Should we exclude all white, middle aged men from all managerial and FA board appointments in doing so ensuring that nobody from a white, middle class background has no aspirations of joining the FA. Closing that avenue off for a large majority of the population?

But this is it, I agree with you that it is an issue that ex-players are looked at straight away for coaching roles. This actually creates part of the issue itself for minorities who already find it difficult to get a job. You know full well my opinion on that as well as a young coach. You are right, football is backwards which is why we need something slightly more drastic like a Rooney Rule which might demand for a transparent process. It's not perfect but it's a form of positive action (not discrimination) which we need.

As Darlo said, maybe my comment should be aimed at 'upper class'. Whatever, I think people can picture who I am talking about. Can you find me saying that there should be no white middle class people running football? You are making that bit up. It makes me sad that people confuse people who want to give people equal opportunities for wanting to get rid of all of the current incumbents. I want a diverse board which will represent people and their needs. The board would still be a majority of white males anyway but actually working with people from different backgrounds might actually help educate them, as you have mentioned is needed. Otherwise - how can they understand? The evidence is that they don't as this has been an issue for far too long and one that in 2017, as I have mentioned, is unacceptable.
 
I'll ask you and the wider community:

What makes you think ex-players will be good coaches? Would an electrician be any good at running the National Grid?

It's a complete red herring for people to equate playing ability with management otherwise Gullit and Saunders would be good at it and they just aren't. It's bollocks and has nothing to do with ethnicity. If football can't see that in itself is discrimination it may as well give up.

As I said just above, I think you know that I don't think that.
 
With all due respect, this is only something that someone who's never been at the wrong end of systemic discrimination would think counts as "equality".

The playing field isn't level, and football - including English football - is institutionally racist. The fact that something as mild as the Rooney Rule (which only guarantees a single interview slot for a BAME candidate) is resisted so passionately is just one illustration of that fact.

Positive discrimination initiatives like this are used because they address and compensate for the many other stages in a person's life and career where issues like racism have been inescapable and effective. That's just as true for football as it is for, say, university applications, or designated seats for women on corporate boards. They are a very minor band-aid over a much larger problem which takes a lot of work over years and decades to fully address on a social- and national-scale, and, as crude as they are, they do work.

It's also well worth addressing your point here about black players, because I hear variants of this argument a lot. British football players are disproportionately likely to be black in the UK - there are multiple factors influencing why that is, but the key one is that professional footballers are overwhelmingly drawn from working class communities, and, in the UK, black people are generally poorer than white. Having so many black players is actually an indicator of racial inequality; and, similarly, the fact that so few of them are able to make the jump to coaching (and positions of more significant power) is in turn an indicator of where the power still lies in British and English football.

I know it's fun to laugh at Ince, because he's a muppet, but we really need to listen to black players who want to become coaches but who are told that they're not respected enough to be given that kind of responsibility. They're not moaning for no reason, they're identifying a real problem that the FA and other authorities are too slow to respond to. Again, the Rooney Rule is *extremely* mild as a form of positive action, and it's not even mandatory - it's an optional trial that a handful of clubs have taken on board.

As to the specific case with Wolves, it's a little tricky. Part of the reason for the Rule being specifically for British coaches is that the FA wants to address the fact that England doesn't produce top-quality managers and coaches any more, and hasn't for many years now - so their concern is for British candidates in general, and I get that they don't see Nuno as qualifying here. But I think there are some tweaks you could do to adjust for the structural differences between the UK and the US, where teams do habitually interview candidates for coaching jobs. Maybe have an offset system - if you want to hire a specific candidate, you have to compensate for not interviewing a BAME candidate by offering a coaching job elsewhere in your setup specifically for BAME candidates. Considering how often the argument against it is "well, these black players need to get their badges and work hard as coaches to get in a position to be considered for top managerial roles", it would address the real bottleneck here in the UK - there aren't enough black coaches being hired in academies and as lower-down backroom staff to even start the process of working up to more important roles.

I mean, fuck, we're talking about Paul Ince *yet again*. The fact that the only black managerial candidate regularly interviewed at Championship level is Paul Ince should be proof enough that this is a serious problem - he's been out of work as a manager for half of the last decade, but he's still the only black candidate that most fans recognise, that most clubs interview, that gets interviewed in the press about this issue, when there are dozens, hundreds probably, of black former players screaming and shouting about this issue but not being listened to despite the evidence being right there for all to see.

Great post.
 
But this is it, I agree with you that it is an issue that ex-players are looked at straight away for coaching roles. This actually creates part of the issue itself for minorities who already find it difficult to get a job. You know full well my opinion on that as well as a young coach. You are right, football is backwards which is why we need something slightly more drastic like a Rooney Rule which might demand for a transparent process. It's not perfect but it's a form of positive action (not discrimination) which we need.

As Darlo said, maybe my comment should be aimed at 'upper class'. Whatever, I think people can picture who I am talking about. Can you find me saying that there should be no white middle class people running football? You are making that bit up. It makes me sad that people confuse people who want to give people equal opportunities for wanting to get rid of all of the current incumbents. I want a diverse board which will represent people and their needs. The board would still be a majority of white males anyway but actually working with people from different backgrounds might actually help educate them, as you have mentioned is needed. Otherwise - how can they understand? The evidence is that they don't as this has been an issue for far too long and one that in 2017, as I have mentioned, is unacceptable.

I think we are in violent agreement on this. I think the Rooney rule (as Proslo states) is too weak. It should go much further into background, ethnicity, gender and all should be interviewed if they have the relevant qualifications or are willing to work on those qualifications (imagine football clubs hiring apprentice coaches just to coach and have a long term plan for them, like every other business in the UK).

It really does piss me off that supposedly successful business people act like utter cuntpuddles when they own a football club.
 
As I said just above, I think you know that I don't think that.

I know you don't which is why I think you and I are in violent agreement on this. Sadly it is seen as politically incorrect to (a) not be about ethnicity and (b) come from a white, middle class, middle aged male ;)
 
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