Farage Ltd and Similar Watch

[Deutsch Wolf]

No I suspect it's people who have no work ethic and are unemployable.

Which is not a problem that is caused by or exacerbated by immigration.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

No I suspect it's people who have no work ethic and are unemployable.

How would reducing immigration have any impact on those who don't want to work? The correlation between economic migration and domestic unemployment might seem plausible but scratch the surface and it is no more credible than a UKIP manifesto.

 

[Papper]

How would reducing immigration have any impact on those who don't want to work? The correlation between economic migration and domestic unemployment might seem plausible but scratch the surface and it is no more credible than a UKIP manifesto.

The Politicians are incapable of getting these people into work and that is their failure. It's the rest of us that not only have to support those that can't be be bothered, but also the economic migrants that earn low wages. As you see the majority of migrant jobs are unskilled and poorly paid. As a result there are millions extra who use hospitals, schools and other public services. The sums do not add up. I don't scapegoat Economic migrants at all but my focus is on the failure of the Politicians to manage a situation. I am yet to be convinced that the mass immigration of recent years has done anything but cost us.

 

[Papper]

Which is not a problem that is caused by or exacerbated by immigration.

You mention supply and demand. If you flood the labour market with cheap labour you only serve to make the poor poorer ( unless you subsidise them with benefits ). In other words big business wins, taxes are high, public services stretched and you have created an underclass. You have a social time bomb.

 

[Penk Wolf]

It is, but there are thousands of young lads who would jump at the chance to qualify as plumbers. Could we not train them instead?

There's a shortage of plumbers in the Country at the moment. It's only recently that kids have realised that they can earn shit loads for doing fuck all. so have started to train to be a plumber, but in the mean time there is a gap which needs to be filled by someone.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The Politicians are incapable of getting these people into work and that is their failure. It's the rest of us that not only have to support those that can't be be bothered, but also the economic migrants that earn low wages. As you see the majority of migrant jobs are unskilled and poorly paid. As a result there are millions extra who use hospitals, schools and other public services. The sums do not add up. I don't scapegoat Economic migrants at all but my focus is on the failure of the Politicians to manage a situation. I am yet to be convinced that the mass immigration of recent years has done anything but cost us.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/287287/occ109.pdf

http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/sites/files/migobs/Briefing%20-%20Labour%20Market%20Effects%20of%20Immigration_0.pdf

What sums are you referring to that don't add up?

 

[Penk Wolf]

I don't get the assumption that you can train anyone to be a plumber, carpenter, joiner, electrician etc. Let's say for a minute my work dried up and I found myself long term unemployed. I would be abysmal at any of those jobs if I tried. Plus I don't drive.

It's skilled labour, not 'sort of skilled, but on cursory observation it can't be that hard, so anyone could do it labour'.

Carpenter and joiner are pretty skilled jobs, but I'd say plumbing and electrics can be picked up pretty quickly.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I think it's more the knowledge required for plumbing or electrics rather than an technical skill like carpentry. I don't think either are the sort of thing you'd want some brainless no mark to be attempting though, not everyone will be capable.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I think it's more the knowledge required for plumbing or electrics rather than an technical skill like carpentry. I don't think either are the sort of thing you'd want some brainless no mark to be attempting though, not everyone will be capable.

The experience I've had with both are that a high percentage are brainless. It's more about getting the qualifications than actually doing the job.

 

[Papper]

What sums are you referring to that don't add up?

The sums that mean that hospitals are over stretched and under funded, the sums that means schools are over subscribed and under funded and we have rising levels of illiteracy. The sums that mean taxes remain high, that the gap between the rich and poor widens, that the cost of living rises and wages don't. The sums that means councils have to make cuts etc etc. Money doesn't grow on trees.

http://www.debtbombshell.com

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The sums that mean that hospitals are over stretched and under funded, the sums that means schools are over subscribed and under funded and we have rising levels of illiteracy. The sums that mean taxes remain high, that the gap between the rich and poor widens, that the cost of living rises and wages don't. The sums that means councils have to make cuts etc etc. Money doesn't grow on trees.

http://www.debtbombshell.com

How much of that is down to EU immigration? My understanding is that hospital funding has been reduced in real terms due to the government's decision to curb public spending - similar scenario in schools. How is immigration a cause of "rising levels of illiteracy"? Might there be other more significant causes? High taxes is little to do with immigration. The gap between rich and poor has widened primarily because the rich have got richer at a faster rate than the poor have become better off, it is only in the last few years that the standard of living has dropped and the reasons for that are not attributable to immigration.

You appear to be taking one set of sums and using them to prove a different point. That doesn't add up at all...

 

[Papper]

How much of that is down to EU immigration? My understanding is that hospital funding has been reduced in real terms due to the government's decision to curb public spending - similar scenario in schools. How is immigration a cause of "rising levels of illiteracy"? Might there be other more significant causes? High taxes is little to do with immigration. The gap between rich and poor has widened primarily because the rich have got richer at a faster rate than the poor have become better off, it is only in the last few years that the standard of living has dropped and the reasons for that are not attributable to immigration.

You appear to be taking one set of sums and using them to prove a different point. That doesn't add up at all...

If you cannot raise enough money to meet your spending obligations it doesn't make sense to flood the country with economic migrants on low wages to put further strain on the services we already having difficulty funding. That's basic economics.

Ultimately our level of well being is dependant on what funds are available and therefore if there is more demand and less funds you get larger classrooms etc etc etc. A higher pool of labour ultimately means wages will fall or exist at a subsistence level that has to be topped up by the state.

Why do you think the govt has curbed public spending?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-note-successor

 

[The Saturday Boy]

If you cannot raise enough money to meet your spending obligations it doesn't make sense to flood the country with economic migrants on low wages to put further strain on the services we already having difficulty funding. That's basic economics.

Ultimately our level of well being is dependant on what funds are available and therefore if there is more demand and less funds you get larger classrooms etc etc etc. A higher pool of labour ultimately means wages will fall or exist at a subsistence level that has to be topped up by the state.

Why do you think the govt has curbed public spending?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-note-successor

It isn't basic economics at all, it is using emotive language to distort the facts. Many of those who come in on low wages are required to make the services we have run, without that labour there would be incredible strain on many of our services both within and outside of the public sector. The two links I provided come to the same conclusion, which is opposite to the position you are taking, that economic migration from the EU has had only a minimal impact even during the current depressed economic situation. That higher pool of labour has not just had the effect on wages that you suggest unless you only consider a small part of the overall labour market and even then the impact isn't as great as you are suggesting.

The government has curbed public spending to fulfil an economic ideology of a smaller state. The "reducing the debt" mantra is rubbish, there was no economic need to reduce the debt at the pace they are doing so, they are making hay while the sun shines on the back of other people's misery.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Skills shortage is going to be the biggest hurdle over the next couple of years, how do you propose addressing this without the help of migrant workers?

 

[Papper]

It isn't basic economics at all, it is using emotive language to distort the facts. Many of those who come in on low wages are required to make the services we have run, without that labour there would be incredible strain on many of our services both within and outside of the public sector.

The majority of economic migrants work in the service industry are on low wages and yes are necessary because others won't do the work. So not only have you got the underclass to support you've got the millions of economic migrants that use schools, hospitals and public services. There is little net value of an unskilled migrant working in the service industry, especially the public sector as it adds strain to already stretched services - that isn't emotive at all.

The two links I provided come to the same conclusion, which is opposite to the position you are taking, that economic migration from the EU has had only a minimal impact even during the current depressed economic situation. That higher pool of labour has not just had the effect on wages that you suggest unless you only consider a small part of the overall labour market and even then the impact isn't as great as you are suggesting.

A larger pool of labour has to have an effect. People willing to work harder for lower wages. The business that exploit this get rich and those who are unskilled face competition for jobs. We are a service industry, looks like the majority of economic migrant work in the service industry and while it may not have any effect on ability to manufacture or innovate we have have millions of economic migrants that in effect are not actually adding any value. They are adding a strain to already stretched services.

The government has curbed public spending to fulfil an economic ideology of a smaller state. The "reducing the debt" mantra is rubbish, there was no economic need to reduce the debt at the pace they are doing so, they are making hay while the sun shines on the back of other people's misery.

Well in that case hopefully Ed Miliband will borrow more and reduce taxes while increasing funding to public services. More hospitals schools and better roads. Of course he won't tell you how he plans to raise money because he wouldn't get elected. The letter left by Byrne suggests there was nothing left to spend.

 

[Papper]

Many of the service industries have to exist - the market demand is already set. You need cleaners, you need food operatives, warehouse staff for essential industries etc etc. All economic migration does is add competition of businesses competing for a share of the market. This drives lower wages amongst the unskilled. There is no wealth creation as such, there is cost cutting and a few very rich people at the top. There is little net value of flooding the labour market for the service industry and subsiding low wages with state funds.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Surely, cleaners, food operatives, warehouse staff start on close to the minimum wage anyway?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The majority of economic migrants work in the service industry are on low wages and yes are necessary because others won't do the work. So not only have you got the underclass to support you've got the millions of economic migrants that use schools, hospitals and public services. There is little net value of an unskilled migrant working in the service industry, especially the public sector as it adds strain to already stretched services - that isn't emotive at all.

You referred to it as a "flood". That is emotive. According to research carried out by University College London, economic migrants from the EU are less likely to receive benefits or social housing and have made a net contribution of £25 billion since 2000. That seems to be a quite substantial "net value".


A larger pool of labour has to have an effect. People willing to work harder for lower wages. The business that exploit this get rich and those who are unskilled face competition for jobs. We are a service industry, looks like the majority of economic migrant work in the service industry and while it may not have any effect on ability to manufacture or innovate we have have millions of economic migrants that in effect are not actually adding any value. They are adding a strain to already stretched services.

That assumes that the the labour supply curve is only impacted by the supply of labour, which it isn't, which is basic economics.



Well in that case hopefully Ed Miliband will borrow more and reduce taxes while increasing funding to public services. More hospitals schools and better roads. Of course he won't tell you how he plans to raise money because he wouldn't get elected. The letter left by Byrne suggests there was nothing left to spend.

The alternative models of economic change are widely available to debate but they rarely get into the mainstream media. There is not just one kind of debt, the different types of debt are often reported interchangeably without any explanation. While this government argues it has to pay off it's debt as quickly as possible, there is no similar expectation on me to repay my mortgage which still has over 20 years to run and represents a sizeable chunk of my expenditure. Debt, in our economic model, is normal. Attempting to reduce the debt at the speed we are currently doing is not normal.

And nothing you have put forward is caused by, or made significantly worse by, economic migration.

 

[Papper]

Surely, cleaners, food operatives, warehouse staff start on close to the minimum wage anyway?

I would have thought so. My point is that low skilled, low paid migration is not be beneficial, it doesn't actually create wealth and more should be done to get those unemployed who can't be bothered back into work. Wouldn't it be better to increase the minimum wage and cut immigration? The service industry exists to service steady markets ie we will always spend x amount on food, always require x number of cleaners etc etc . I feel wealth has to be redistributed and if it means state assistance to top up wages so be it. If at the same time they can reduce demand on public services it is ultimately cost effective. Get the unemployed into work as a priority.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I would have thought so. My point is that low skilled, low paid migration is not be beneficial, it doesn't actually create wealth and more should be done to get those unemployed who can't be bothered back into work. Wouldn't it be better to increase the minimum wage and cut immigration? The service industry exists to service steady markets ie we will always spend x amount on food, always require x number of cleaners etc etc . I feel wealth has to be redistributed and if it means state assistance to top up wages so be it. If at the same time they can reduce demand on public services it is ultimately cost effective. Get the unemployed into work as a priority.

The only way you'll be able to increase minimum wage substantially is by getting corporates to share their profits with SMEs. If you made someone like ASDA increase their minimum wage they'd screw their suppliers, which would mean that more of their suppliers would end up going to the wall and their employees would then earn less than minimum wage.

Until the large companies stop putting profits first the Country will never improve at the bottom. Some of the things I see and hear regarding health and safety items is short of astonishing.