Beer

[Johnny75]

It's £3.60 for a drink at the appropriate measure. Seems very reasonable to me.

I think £3.60 is pretty steep for a drink wherever you are personally.

 

[machin05]

Well, if that's your barometer, then fair enough.

Not many places selling anything decent for less than that though, is there?

 

[Johnny75]

Well, if that's your barometer, then fair enough.

Not many places selling anything much for less than that is there?

There's plenty that do and of decent quality too. Plenty of decent bars in an around the midlands are less than that (and some more). As strong believer in free markets they can charge what they like and good luck to them but I don't think that kind of drink commands that price for it's measure.

Just my opinion though.

 

[machin05]

There's plenty that do and of decent quality too. Plenty of decent bars in an around the midlands are less than that (and some more). As strong believer in free markets they can charge what they like and good luck to them but I don't think that kind of drink commands that price for it's measure.

Just my opinion though.

What kind of drink? A double IPA?

 

[Johnny75]

What kind of drink? A double IPA?

Yes, I think a lot of DIPA's are vastly overpriced for what they are. Don't get me wrong, I think they are very nice but I think they are very much a marketeers dream. It's not as if you need twice the amount of ingredients (although you do need more hops it is much more powerful hops needed) or labour to make it, it's exactly the same as brewing any beer really, just the ingredients change along with a change in process (according to blogs and brewers on the t'interweb).

But as most marketeers will tell you, bullshit baffles brains.

 

[Johnny75]

There does seem to be some myth around craft beer that people couldn't drink a pint of DIPA at 9% as it's way too strong. This of course is bollocks as two large glasses of wine are just under a pint and most decent wine is anywhere between 11 and 14%.

Edit: I should say, I speak as somebody who loves the different types of beers on offer and have no problem with beer served in sorts of sizes and a pint isn't always better.

 

[The Bear]

I think it's down to the taste. High % beer tastes stronger than something like wine.

 

[machin05]

Yes, I think a lot of DIPA's are vastly overpriced for what they are. Don't get me wrong, I think they are very nice but I think they are very much a marketeers dream. It's not as if you need twice the amount of ingredients (although you do need more hops it is much more powerful hops needed) or labour to make it, it's exactly the same as brewing any beer really, just the ingredients change along with a change in process (according to blogs and brewers on the t'interweb).

But as most marketeers will tell you, bullshit baffles brains.

And the increase in duty to be paid.

Malts I think you pretty much need double the amount for double the abv. In a 5l homebrew recipe, if you use 1kg of pale ale malt (with a potential extract of 1.037) with a brewhouse efficiency of 75% you'll get an OG of 1.046. Ferment that out with a neutral american ale yeast with a 75% attenuation and you'll get an FG of 1.012 resulting in a 4.5% beer. If you want 9% you'd need 1.99kg of the same malt (basically double) if everything else stays the same. Now, obviously brewers can use sugars to up abv without the use of more malts, but that can thin out the body so I'm not sure if the likes of Tiny Rebel and Weird Beard do that. Also, with modern DIPAs, brewers are adding oats and wheat to thicken the body and add creaminess to maximise the perceived juice levels. More ingredients, innit.

Hops are the same type - you don't use more powerful hops in a DIPA as opposed to an IPA, just more of them. To keep the beer balanced, I wouldn't be surprised if the hopping rates are doubled.

Just checked the recipes for Brewdog (free pdf available). Punk IPA is hopped in the kettle (mostly for bittering and some flavour) at a rate of 5.2g/l and dry hopped (huge flavour and aroma additions) at a rate of 7.6g/l. It's double bigger brother Hardcore IPA is hopped in the kettle at 6.6g/l but more significantly dry-hopped at 15.3g/l (pretty much double). Ands that's a fairly old school, malty double IPA and not getting anywhere near the hopping schedules of the likes of Cloudwater!

So, it seems that you kinda actually do need twice the ingredients.

I'd happily pay less than a fiver in a pub for 2/3 of a Belgian DIPA from two top class craft breweries.

 

[machin05]

Having said all of that, there's nowhere in Wolves that serves that kind of beer, so it's all moot :icon_lol:

 

[Johnny75]

And the increase in duty to be paid.

Malts I think you pretty much need double the amount for double the abv. In a 5l homebrew recipe, if you use 1kg of pale ale malt (with a potential extract of 1.037) with a brewhouse efficiency of 75% you'll get an OG of 1.046. Ferment that out with a neutral american ale yeast with a 75% attenuation and you'll get an FG of 1.012 resulting in a 4.5% beer. If you want 9% you'd need 1.99kg of the same malt (basically double) if everything else stays the same. Now, obviously brewers can use sugars to up abv without the use of more malts, but that can thin out the body so I'm not sure if the likes of Tiny Rebel and Weird Beard do that. Also, with modern DIPAs, brewers are adding oats and wheat to thicken the body and add creaminess to maximise the perceived juice levels. More ingredients, innit.

Hops are the same type - you don't use more powerful hops in a DIPA as opposed to an IPA, just more of them. To keep the beer balanced, I wouldn't be surprised if the hopping rates are doubled.

Just checked the recipes for Brewdog (free pdf available). Punk IPA is hopped in the kettle (mostly for bittering and some flavour) at a rate of 5.2g/l and dry hopped (huge flavour and aroma additions) at a rate of 7.6g/l. It's double bigger brother Hardcore IPA is hopped in the kettle at 6.6g/l but more significantly dry-hopped at 15.3g/l (pretty much double). Ands that's a fairly old school, malty double IPA and not getting anywhere near the hopping schedules of the likes of Cloudwater!

So, it seems that you kinda actually do need twice the ingredients.

I'd happily pay less than a fiver in a pub for 2/3 of a Belgian DIPA from two top class craft breweries.

I don't doubt what you say, more that my information was from brewing sites and I guess they're wrong.

It's all about choice and I think 2/3rds of a pint at around £4 (I may have been a bit out on the £3.60 for a drink!) is probably about right if the beer is absolutely top notch. i think the brewery's do get into making these brews for the sake of it sometimes as not everybody (me included) will have the knowledge of a DIPA v IPA and will look at the price. If breweries only sell to those 'in the know' then that's a pretty small market and the title 'beer snob' could well be applied.

Plenty of places up here Machin if you want to go to some decent alehouses that serve you a decent craft beer on tap at a budget less than it takes to feed a family of four for a week.

 

[Langers]

I did find it odd paying what I did in Bruges for various sized measures of beer depending on the brewery/strength etc.

But after a while, I got used to it and it made sense. Sure, some measures weren't much but they were fucking powerful! So paying per drink as opposed to fussing about the volume of it made a bit more sense.

Machin - maybe that's what you've been trying to tell me for the past x number of years, but fuck off if you think I'm giving you any credit....

 

[Johnny75]

I did find it odd paying what I did in Bruges for various sized measures of beer depending on the brewery/strength etc.

But after a while, I got used to it and it made sense. Sure, some measures weren't much but they were fucking powerful! So paying per drink as opposed to fussing about the volume of it made a bit more sense.

Machin - maybe that's what you've been trying to tell me for the past x number of years, but fuck off if you think I'm giving you any credit....

Just out of interest what did you pay on average?

 

[Langers]

Just out of interest what did you pay on average?

It ranged from €2.50 all the way up to €7 depending on the strength. The Rochefort 10 was €6.50 I think. And yes, I know you can buy one around here for about half that. But it didn't seem to bother me. It's not like I was going to neck 4 or 5 of the things!

Is it bad that I didn't have any breakfast this morning and it's still before midday but I'd happily sink a Rochefort 10 right now as it's made me thirsty thinking about it?

 

[Johnny75]

It ranged from €2.50 all the way up to €7 depending on the strength. The Rochefort 10 was €6.50 I think. And yes, I know you can buy one around here for about half that. But it didn't seem to bother me. It's not like I was going to neck 4 or 5 of the things!

Is it bad that I didn't have any breakfast this morning and it's still before midday but I'd happily sink a Rochefort 10 right now as it's made me thirsty thinking about it?

Not if you are still in Bruges. Might have a bit of trouble finding a decent spot in Brum mind you.

The prices are still mad in Bruges then. I couldn't work them out other than the closer to the main square you were the more expensive they got.

 

[Langers]

Not if you are still in Bruges. Might have a bit of trouble finding a decent spot in Brum mind you.

The prices are still mad in Bruges then. I couldn't work them out other than the closer to the main square you were the more expensive they got.

Some places were great value. I don't think it's a case of the further out you go, the cheaper it is. The Beer Wall for example is VERY central but not unreasonably priced. I think it's definitely a case of finding a good place which prides itself on good beer with plenty of choice as opposed to mere location.

One thing I loved about it was how unassuming the best places were. You'd just stumble upon them, and as soon as you walked in and saw the beer menu....

 

[machin05]

I did find it odd paying what I did in Bruges for various sized measures of beer depending on the brewery/strength etc.

But after a while, I got used to it and it made sense. Sure, some measures weren't much but they were fucking powerful! So paying per drink as opposed to fussing about the volume of it made a bit more sense.

Machin - maybe that's what you've been trying to tell me for the past x number of years, but fuck off if you think I'm giving you any credit....

:tiphat: I'll take that!

 

[machin05]

I don't doubt what you say, more that my information was from brewing sites and I guess they're wrong.

It's all about choice and I think 2/3rds of a pint at around £4 (I may have been a bit out on the £3.60 for a drink!) is probably about right if the beer is absolutely top notch. i think the brewery's do get into making these brews for the sake of it sometimes as not everybody (me included) will have the knowledge of a DIPA v IPA and will look at the price. If breweries only sell to those 'in the know' then that's a pretty small market and the title 'beer snob' could well be applied.

Plenty of places up here Machin if you want to go to some decent alehouses that serve you a decent craft beer on tap at a budget less than it takes to feed a family of four for a week.

Well, I guess different breweries have different methods/recipes/margins/business models. There's more than one way to get 8% out of a beer - with varying results.

I really don't think they make them purely to overcharge and make money. Maybe I'm easily swayed, but more often than not I read/hear brewers (especially craft) saying that they make beer that they love to drink. Big juicy double IPAs are everywhere right now, and that's because a well made, top quality one is absolutely delicious. Any brewer making one for the sake of it and cutting back on ingredients and/or quality, or without the right expertise is not going to do well out of it. Likewise, if a brewery are just in it for the money then they'd not be making DIPA and heavily new-world hopped beers.

 

[Johnny75]

Well, I guess different breweries have different methods/recipes/margins/business models. There's more than one way to get 8% out of a beer - with varying results.

I really don't think they make them purely to overcharge and make money. Maybe I'm easily swayed, but more often than not I read/hear brewers (especially craft) saying that they make beer that they love to drink. Big juicy double IPAs are everywhere right now, and that's because a well made, top quality one is absolutely delicious. Any brewer making one for the sake of it and cutting back on ingredients and/or quality, or without the right expertise is not going to do well out of it. Likewise, if a brewery are just in it for the money then they'd not be making DIPA and heavily new-world hopped beers.

I think you've described as doing it for the money there not for the sake of it.

I go back to the DIPA label which is seen as a 'cool' or 'hipster' thing to be buying/ drinking and the market aware breweries (Cloudwater et al) pick up on that and their prices have risen according to demand. They are making hay while the sun shines and good on 'em for doing it. I'm not really buying that they do it 'because it's what they like to drink'.

There are some sharp minds out there and breweries trying to emulate Cloudwater and others that are now brewing DIPA's and are just doing what is currently trending in the marketplace as you point out. Responding to customer demands if you like, that's just good business.

 

[machin05]

I think you've described as doing it for the money there not for the sake of it.

I go back to the DIPA label which is seen as a 'cool' or 'hipster' thing to be buying/ drinking and the market aware breweries (Cloudwater et al) pick up on that and their prices have risen according to demand. They are making hay while the sun shines and good on 'em for doing it. I'm not really buying that they do it 'because it's what they like to drink'.

There are some sharp minds out there and breweries trying to emulate Cloudwater and others that are now brewing DIPA's and are just doing what is currently trending in the marketplace as you point out. Responding to customer demands if you like, that's just good business.

I think with Cloudwater it is. Big hazy New England style IPA/DIPA has been their MO since pretty much day one.

Listened to a podcast with Jaeger Wise (head brewer of Wild Card) the other day and she was asked why they've just brewed a one-off hazy NE IPA, and she was very honest about the reply. Yes, it's a hyped style at the moment, and it does seem like chasing trends, but she was blown away by how good they can be that she just really wanted to see if she could produce one. It's a one off brew for them though because they're so expensive to make (very little money to be made from that style without charging big prices - like Cloudwater et al do, but that's because they make them all the time) and they need to keep their core range constantly available so have to dedicate pretty much all their tank space to them.

 

[Johnny75]

Cloudwater definitely found their niche, the innovators of that type in this country.