Beer

[FrankMunro-371]

I would never drink carling. So I fail to see what point you are trying to make.

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[FrankMunro-371]

Especially when we're talking about Belgian beer and De Dolle in particular. They brew some of the most innovative and exciting beer in Europe and haven't updated their brewing kit since the 80's. Westvleteren (brewers of the rarest beers in the world) recently exported their beer for the first time in their history, for one year only, so that they could make a profit and pay for a new roof on their monastery.

Greene King are on the FTSE 250 and serve up warm, tasteless piss like Ruddles, Old Speckled Hen & Abbot.

There is nothing wrong with Ruddles. Each to their own I suppose. I am just glad I am not a beer snob.

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[Langers]

Don't get the Abbott hate either TBH. It's a nice drink.

 

[machin05]

That's hardly the point.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Don't get the Abbott hate either TBH. It's a nice drink.

Agreed.

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[machin05]

Agreed.

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Do you even remember your original question!?!

 

[FrankMunro-371]

Yes Sir.

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[machin05]

Yes Sir.

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So what are your thoughts on the responses from myself and Lycan?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I think you can argue the toss about more expensive brewing process, better drink, lower margin until the cows come home, but for a large part of the market £5 for half a pint is an instant killer.

No way on earth would I pay that. It depends on your enthusiasm I guess. With every market there are diminishing returns of how much quality improves after a certain rise in price and your enthusiasm for the product (as well as your budget) is likely to decide where you sit.

Beer I struggle to justify it. Guitars it is no problem at all.

To contrast - an Epiphone Les Paul is about £400. Great guitar. A Gibson Les Paul standard probably retails at about £2000. Is it five times as good? No - probably about twice as good as the Epiphone. However, would I pay the extra? Gleefully, in that market.

Maybe I am more of a guitar enthusiast than a beer enthusiast.

 

[FrankMunro-371]

So what are your thoughts on the responses from myself and Lycan?

My thoughts are the same as they were yesterday. I would not pay £5 for half a pint of beer. Lycan called other beers warm rubbish, but that is just his point of view. We each drink what we want to drink, and pay what we are prepared to pay. £5 for a half is just a rip off.

 

[Johnny75]

My thoughts are the same as they were yesterday. I would not pay £5 for half a pint of beer. Lycan called other beers warm rubbish, but that is just his point of view. We each drink what we want to drink, and pay what we are prepared to pay. £5 for a half is just a rip off.

You have not understood the pricing and brewing cost argument if that is your stance. The price is not about the consumer or mark up it is about cost to the brewer. Certainly with the Belgium beers this is the case (and some American beers too).

Paddy - are you not paying for rarity and the brand with the Gibson guitar?

 

[machin05]

Appreciate that Paddy, and completely agree. But my point about affordability still remains. Most beer drinkers can afford the most expensive beers, so therefore it does change the argument slightly. What doesn't help is the intrisic need for people to extrapolate pricing up to a pint measure.

So, yeah, it's £5 for a half - but by no means are you getting half a drink. There's no way you would want a pint of 10% Belgian beer - that's like wanting to drink a pint of wine! Over the course of a night maybe, but not in a round at the same pace that everyone else is necking a pint of Bathams!

The way I look at it is that you're paying £5 for a drink. £5 for an appropriate measure of what's being served. So the choice simply becomes a choice between a 'serving' of (for example) Peroni at £4.20 or De Dolle for £5 - not such a big difference in those terms, IMO.

This seems to be idiosyncratic with beer too, which is really baffling and frustrating when I desparately want the overall beer culture in the UK to continue to progress as it has over the last 10-15 years. You don't really get people complaining that their fillet steak is smaller and more expensive than the 24oz Rump they can get at The Hungry Horse.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Definitely the brand. Not necessarily rarity as Gibson do pretty large production runs. Better wood, better pickups, (usually but not always with Gibson - I have seen a couple of gibsons that were absolute hounds) better build quality and finishing.

So the materials used by Gibson cost more. The finishing should take a bit longer. And you definitely pay a mark-up for the name on the headstock.

Maybe an even more accurate contrast is between a Gibson standard and a Gibson custom shop. Say the custom shop is about twice as much again (they usually retail at £4000 - £5000 depending on spec). Materials are usually pretty similar, although some of the woods used are absolutely top end and cost a mint. The difference is the guitar is hand-made by the absolute best luthiers. Sounds a bit more similar to the craft beer movement.

For the record, I would sell a kidney for a custom shop Gibson!

 

[Langers]

I can't agree with you I'm afraid - I'd be more than willing to try any of these expensive beers, but of the craft beers I have tried - some of which have been absolutely tremendous by the way - my favourite drinks are the likes of Bathams, Dark Star, Hobsons, Kelham Island. All the absolute top of the range as far as I'm concerned.

That's not me saying there's no way any other beer will ever beat those - far from it - but these all cost me between £2.50 - £3.50 a pint, depending on where it is etc. So it's only natural for me to expect the same kind of pricing structure for other drinks. I get the reason why they're not priced the same, but it means they're mainly going to be out of my price range.

Bathams is not the 24 oz rump to the 8 oz fillet of De Dolle, other lesser beers may well fit the comparison better (Doom Bar is more like a wellington boot for example).

I have a budget for when I go for a few beers - if I'm going to a place with a few guest ales, I will want to try them. I don't want to use my budget on less than 2 pints of beer for the whole evening, I have to watch my disposable income so naturally, seeing 1/2 a pint for £5 just isn't really an option, unless I want to cradle half a pint of beer for several hours.

 

[Langers]

Definitely the brand. Not necessarily rarity as Gibson do pretty large production runs. Better wood, better pickups, (usually but not always with Gibson - I have seen a couple of gibsons that were absolute hounds) better build quality and finishing.

So the materials used by Gibson cost more. The finishing should take a bit longer. And you definitely pay a mark-up for the name on the headstock.

Maybe an even more accurate contrast is between a Gibson standard and a Gibson custom shop. Say the custom shop is about twice as much again (they usually retail at £4000 - £5000 depending on spec). Materials are usually pretty similar, although some of the woods used are absolutely top end and cost a mint. The difference is the guitar is hand-made by the absolute best luthiers. Sounds a bit more similar to the craft beer movement.

For the record, I would sell a kidney for a custom shop Gibson!

Off topic here but a mate of mine works for Gibson and travels to Nashville at least once a month. His music room is fucking ridiculous - he's got 3 custom made Gibsons - a Les Paul, a SG and I'm not sure what the other one is. They're absolutely gorgeous. He's also got a Telecaster and a custom Strat (in Clapton black and white) from when he worked for Fender.

He's a bastard.

 

[machin05]

I thought this was an interesting blog post that I read a couple of months ago. It's by the head brewer at Hardknott - one of those 'overpriced' craft beer breweries - about how difficult it is to actually make much money if you do things properly and by the book - http://hardknott.blogspot.co.uk/2016/05/due-dilligence.html

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

That rather beats my paltry collection!

ESP Custom shop Horizon
Gibson Les Paul (not a standard as they are the premium product bizarrely!)
Schechter 7 string

No Fenders yet, although I am tempted by a USA strat just to have a single coil guitar. I also want a custom shop Jackson King V (Squeeze reckons that is my inner teenager trying to escape in some form of mid-life crisis)

Anyway, back on topic...

 

[FrankMunro-371]

I am with Langers on this. Why spend £5 for a half a pint of beer? It does not make sense to me.

Anyway we won't agree on this. I had a bottle of Titanic Iceberg on Friday evening. It cost me £2.65, and it was excellent.

 

[machin05]

I can't agree with you I'm afraid - I'd be more than willing to try any of these expensive beers, but of the craft beers I have tried - some of which have been absolutely tremendous by the way - my favourite drinks are the likes of Bathams, Dark Star, Hobsons, Kelham Island. All the absolute top of the range as far as I'm concerned.

See, I used to think that, but I'd take a Buxton, Cloudwater, Magic Rock, Northern Monk, Weird Beard, Beavertown over most of them, most days of the week!

And to me, £3.50 for a pint of Bathams vs £3.50 for 2/3rds of Axe Edge.... The latter is the bargain of the century

That's, of course, if we're persisting with the binary choice that we seem to be perveying here. Ideally I'd start the night with a Dark Star APA, onto a Town Crier, and then opt for a Magic Rock Salty Kiss, Beavertown Gamma Ray, Cloudwater DIPA and then end with a Coffee Porter from Buxton....

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

So, yeah, it's £5 for a half - but by no means are you getting half a drink. There's no way you would want a pint of 10% Belgian beer - that's like wanting to drink a pint of wine! Over the course of a night maybe, but not in a round at the same pace that everyone else is necking a pint of Bathams!

The way I look at it is that you're paying £5 for a drink. £5 for an appropriate measure of what's being served. So the choice simply becomes a choice between a 'serving' of (for example) Peroni at £4.20 or De Dolle for £5 - not such a big difference in those terms, IMO.

That makes perfect sense to me. Personally, I wouldn't be paying that but only because I can't afford it and I don't really appreciate beer enough to warrant it but I understand why the likes of Machin or Lycan would. I totally agree with the point that it's not a case of these breweries ripping anybody off and putting a huge mark up on it, they charge what they charge because you are getting a totally different product to the cheaper, mass produced beers that do put a much bigger mark up on their products.

I think the point is that it is the brewery with the cheaper product but the higher mark up that is doing more of the 'ripping off' if you want to look at it that way.

If you are saying 'why pay £5 for half a pint of beer' then you may as well also say why pay £5 for a glass of wine when I can get a pint of beer for less.