Wolves 0-2 Crystal Palace: Verdict Thread

[Throbber3]

We don't need to play the way we currently do. Not by any stretch.

If that carries on for the rest of the season then I absolutely do not want him to be given money (why would I?) and in that case then he may as well go. In an atmosphere whereby we're in no danger at all and he can try different approaches if he wants over the next 11 games, if he can't improve matters now then I'm not sure when he's going to do it.

As I say, we've been just about average to very, very bad in two thirds of our games this season. It's up to him to improve that.

I didn't want him in the first place and I haven't especially warmed to him, we're no fun at all to watch, he's coming out with complete nonsense in public, he's picking stupid teams that obviously won't work, so right now it wouldn't bother me if we got rid.

As for "Nuno couldn't get these players playing good football", we did for three years under him. I'm not having the gaslighting that we were always crap to watch when that doesn't even remotely reflect his whole time in charge.

Nuno also oversaw:-
Two defeats, one at home to Huddersfield who went down like a stone.
Defeat at home to Watford who also sank
Defeat to Cardiff- who dropped
Bar one 1-0 win a failure to beat Burnley since including an awful 0-4 home loss
Capitulation to West Ham 4-0
A 2-0 loss at home to Hodgsons awful palace
A 5-2 home thrashing by Chelsea
Home losses to Villa 1-0 and WBA 3-2(relegated)

I think we were often a dull watch in the premier league and we were frequently beaten by teams who we should have been doing better against particularly on our own patch. There is only 1 big six thrashing mentioned there, because its at home.

Nuno achieved some great things here but its been a long while since we were an exciting watch. Plenty of good results and hard fought wins, but the closest we came to thrashing a team was Arsenal two seasons back when we over ran them first half. Nunos football was cautious in the premier league and Nuno ball last year was unpalatable for many on here. Lage , I agree , is falling into a similar pattern of dull negative over cautious football. However Mendes has yet to offer us a Jota , Raul , Neves under Lages tenure. Its pointless hiring a manager then firing him for poor performance when he is clearly lacking the personnel he wants to perform as he wants , albeit through injury or lack of transfer support. That midfield has been a threadbare unit for a while and we know what it can do, and what it cant. It cant score goals often enough , It cant create enough for the strikers. So you have to change it. I dont think thats gaslighting Nuno at all.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

So we sacked Nuno because the football was unacceptable and we weren't happy with where we finished. After we won the Championship by miles, qualified for Europe, finished 7th twice, made an FA Cup semi final and a Europa League quarter final.

We're now playing arguably worse football, we were shite in the cups, and unless we turn it round from what we've shown in the last month we're probably going to end up around where we were last year.

So what exactly was the point? And it cost us £10m+ to do that.

I'm not calling for the return of Nuno (those days are gone), I'm saying this is worse to watch than the worst of Nuno. So if we're dismissing the best manager most of us have ever seen at Molineux because of one shit season, I'm not sure why another who looks worse and has no credit in the bank is getting a free pass and we're looking at handing him £50m+ to spend. That doesn't add up.

 

[Templeton Peck]

We would have been poor under Nuno, I think it's fair to say, but relegated? I don't think the man was capable of that.

Our performances got steadily worse. He looked like he'd lost his mojo. Never the same after the first lockdown.

Individuals were poorer too. I can't think of a player who doesn't look better or the same under Lage with the exception of Jimenez. Moutinho looked finished in that least season under Nuno. Kilman would probably be playing for Stoke now.

 

[sycophantia]

So we sacked Nuno because the football was unacceptable and we weren't happy with where we finished. After we won the Championship by miles, qualified for Europe, finished 7th twice, made an FA Cup semi final and a Europa League quarter final.

We're now playing arguably worse football, we were shite in the cups, and unless we turn it round from what we've shown in the last month we're probably going to end up around where we were last year.

So what exactly was the point? And it cost us £10m+ to do that.

I'm not calling for the return of Nuno (those days are gone), I'm saying this is worse to watch than the worst of Nuno. So if we're dismissing the best manager most of us have ever seen at Molineux because of one shit season, I'm not sure why another who looks worse and has no credit in the bank is getting a free pass and we're looking at handing him £50m+ to spend. That doesn't add up.

Don't think the performances of late have been any worse than Nunos last few months but I don't like comparing anyway, but since it keeps coming up, I thought the quality dropped off just before the EL quarters, for most of that season and the previous one we had been largely a defensive side but we were really good at turning the ball over and our quality on the break was excellent, a joy to watch at times.
The first 3 games after the first lockdown we won and were looking good for another pip at Europe. Arsenal came to Molineux and turned us over, we didn't really seem to recover from that and then we had the Raul horror. Dunno whether it was playing behind closed doors or mental fatigue due to covid but we just weren't the same after.
Under Lage it was OK up till a few weeks ago, not always a great watch but we were gathering points and some games were enjoyable.
He does seem to lose the plot though (culminating in last weekends shitshow) Makes some odd selections and doesn't seem to be able to change things mid game when things aren't going right (Nuno was also prone to this at times)
He has to start getting more out of the squad, both results and performances otherwise he will struggle to persuade Fosun to back him and he will lose both fans and the players.

 

[Throbber3]

I'm not calling for the return of Nuno (those days are gone), I'm saying this is worse to watch than the worst of Nuno. So if we're dismissing the best manager most of us have ever seen at Molineux because of one shit season, I'm not sure why another who looks worse and has no credit in the bank is getting a free pass and we're looking at handing him £50m+ to spend. That doesn't add up.

Lage is not getting a free pass. He has taken basically a worse squad to a higher position in 27 games. He has adapted and tweaked things but we are a still drab watch, that has not changed for basically 2 .5 years. I do not think Lage can be truly judged until he has a squad that he has built and that requires some cominsg and goings. I expected those to happen in the summer and in the recent window. They havent. So this summer there is now a lot of pressure on everyone to build. To me its pointless to fire Nuno and not back Bruno with new players. So until that happens it becomes pointless to sack Bruno because all that does is reset to last July. Now that may be what you are calling for. Thats fine, but I do not think it is fair to judge Lage when he hasnt got the squad he clearly wants. He has got plenty to improve on , and has made a number of errors in selection , particularly recently. If he shows the mettle to stick to his convictions and play the system he wants to then I see no issue in backing him if the results are satisfactory. They can be no worse than the last three after all.

Back him.

 

[prawnking]

We don't need to play the way we currently do. Not by any stretch.

If that carries on for the rest of the season then I absolutely do not want him to be given money (why would I?) and in that case then he may as well go. In an atmosphere whereby we're in no danger at all and he can try different approaches if he wants over the next 11 games, if he can't improve matters now then I'm not sure when he's going to do it.

As I say, we've been just about average to very, very bad in two thirds of our games this season. It's up to him to improve that.

I didn't want him in the first place and I haven't especially warmed to him, we're no fun at all to watch, he's coming out with complete nonsense in public, he's picking stupid teams that obviously won't work, so right now it wouldn't bother me if we got rid.

As for "Nuno couldn't get these players playing good football", we did for three years under him. I'm not having the gaslighting that we were always crap to watch when that doesn't even remotely reflect his whole time in charge.

It's a miracle we're a comfortable 8th in the league considering how very, very bad we've been ;-)

He's definitely hit a bad spell, in all honesty we're all feeling twitchy but I feel some people are suddenly (after a January where we seriously looked like popping the glass ceiling a bit) feeling vindication for earlier misgivings and turning the screw a bit unfairly now the opportunity has arisen...

Everyone's prerogative not to warm to the guy, I don't think his nonsense is a particularly frequent feature of his total tenure (he generally seems smart and eloquent to me?) and Nuno came out with plenty of 'solutions' guff in his time. It's not that important to me (if it is to others, up to them)

And Nuno really couldn't get these players to play good football.
He got a team with Boly and Raul in their prime, a fully-firing Adama, Doc, Neto and Jonny and Jota to do so, of course, but plenty of water under the bridge since then.

It's a mixed first season for Bruno so far, but I don't honestly think we could expect a better points haul or league position from him than we have so far, could we? Could certainly expect more experimentation (although he has blooded Gomes and Cundle, shown a lot of faith in Kilman, and most of the squad has got a fair look in), flair and goals, and a different style of football from Nuno's last season. I don't think we're going to get that without investment though, and I don't think your position of not giving it to him makes much sense, unless it's a fancy way of saying 'get rid'?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Goals scored at home:

2018/19: 28 (1.47 GPG)
2019/20: 27 (1.42 GPG)
2020/21: 21 (1.11 GPG)
2021/22* (13 games to date): 10 (0.77 GPG)

We aren't performing "about the same" as we were under Nuno, we're far worse, at least in terms of entertainment and end product. Anyone fancy us scoring 11 goals against Watford, Leeds, Villa, Brighton, Man City and Norwich so we can merely match last season? A season that I repeat, was apparently "unacceptable" and "we couldn't go on like this", even with the mitigating factors of having a child and a housebrick as our striker options for nearly the whole season then (Lage has had far more resources to work with in that department) and having no fans for 18 of the 19 fixtures (we have sold out pretty much every single home game so far, although I suspect we may fall short on Thursday).

 

[prawnking]

It's a clumsy slight of hand to suggest that anyone 'wants him gone' in a sense that is completely disassociated with either the performances delivered or a discretionary judgement made on the potential he has to turn things around. As stated somewhere above in the last 24 hours, I don't want to see anyone fail and I'll be supporting him and the team on Thursday.

That said... I'm not blaming him for our signings, so we can move on from that. I do think his football is poor and deteriorating, most reasonable people are comparing the here and now to where we were in 18/19 and 19/20, and I'm less interested with silky purism than I am in playing with conviction to a plausible plan. You raise plenty of fair challenges, but I suspect even you struggle to see the hallmarks of good leadership material in what has been going on of late? If not, well I hope you're not appointing people to leadership teams.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind if people want him gone, I'm not a Bruno fanboy, I think he's done a decent job with some flaws that are of his own making, and some that stem from pre-existing problems with our culture.

People keep talking about us having no plan, but it's quite obviously a similar plan as Nuno; stay in games, strong defence, nick a goal or two if you can. As our defence has been around the top three in the league for a while, I'll say that part of the plan has been plausible and successful?

The creative/goal-scoring element has been shit of course, but that's been the case since Jota and Doc left and Raul got injured.

 

[redvictor]

So we sacked Nuno because the football was unacceptable and we weren't happy with where we finished. After we won the Championship by miles, qualified for Europe, finished 7th twice, made an FA Cup semi final and a Europa League quarter final.

We're now playing arguably worse football, we were shite in the cups, and unless we turn it round from what we've shown in the last month we're probably going to end up around where we were last year.

So what exactly was the point? And it cost us £10m+ to do that.

I'm not calling for the return of Nuno (those days are gone), I'm saying this is worse to watch than the worst of Nuno. So if we're dismissing the best manager most of us have ever seen at Molineux because of one shit season, I'm not sure why another who looks worse and has no credit in the bank is getting a free pass and we're looking at handing him £50m+ to spend. That doesn't add up.

To be fair fella you ain't giving him much of a chance because you just don't like him, and never have from the beginning. I get the Nuno thing because i felt the same way in the beginning. But like you say the Nuno ship has sailed, and getting a new manager in will cost a fortune, plus Fosun ain't spending 150 million on a completely new squad for a new manager. He has to be given a least a couple of transfer windows of spend surely?

 

[prawnking]

Goals scored at home:

2018/19: 28 (1.47 GPG)
2019/20: 27 (1.42 GPG)
2020/21: 21 (1.11 GPG)
2021/22* (13 games to date): 10 (0.77 GPG)

We aren't performing "about the same" as we were under Nuno, we're far worse, at least in terms of entertainment and end product. Anyone fancy us scoring 11 goals against Watford, Leeds, Villa, Brighton, Man City and Norwich so we can merely match last season? A season that I repeat, was apparently "unacceptable" and "we couldn't go on like this", even with the mitigating factors of having a child and a housebrick as our striker options for nearly the whole season then (Lage has had far more resources to work with in that department) and having no fans for 18 of the 19 fixtures (we have sold out pretty much every single home game so far, although I suspect we may fall short on Thursday).

No-one's happy with the lack of goals / entertainment in many of our games, but we've been generally great at the back, even better than under Nuno I bet, which counts for something?

Entertainment and end product are important, so are points, wins and league position?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I took a video of Coady running when I re-watched a game at home to show my mate as we always laugh at how slow he is.

Watch b5bgnu | Streamable

Watch this video on Streamable.

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Yes he starts jogging right at the end but he looks like he’s towing a caravan at the start and you can see the pain on his face.

Also remember Adam Idah destroying him late on against Norwich in the cup and him trying to get back was painful.

Hasn't he been carrying an injury for a couple of months now?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

It all feels very Lambert for me.

I'm disillusioned with him, he talks a good game, bigs up the fans but then plays the same players and same old shit every week.

At the end of 16/17 I didn't want or trust him with transfer funds and not to clog up the squad with (rumoured at the time) shite like Grant Hanley. Nor do I want our squad to be clogged with shite like Kieffer Moore now.

I suspect we're going to spend the rest of the season recreating Curbishley's Charlton and after looking like cracking europe pre christmas we'll slide down the table after it.

He doesn't play the same players every week does he?

He has changed the team around a hell of a lot, too much in my opinion. He's dropped Raul, played Trincao (then dropped him) played Fabio (then dropped him) brought Donk in (then dropped him) brought Chiquinho off the bench (then dropped him out of the squad, then brought him back again) then there is Marcal who seems to cling on to a place far more regularly than he should (although he was one of our better players against Palace.)

He certainly hasn't "played the same players".

 

[redvictor]

Hasn't he been carrying an injury for a couple of months now?

Ankle injury yes. But even Coady himself says he's slow..

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

No-one's happy with the lack of goals / entertainment in many of our games, but we've been generally great at the back, even better than under Nuno I bet, which counts for something?

Entertainment and end product are important, so are points, wins and league position?

It's a dangerous game you play when you offer absolutely nothing in terms of aesthetics, especially when you're not managing a team whose main goal is to finish 17th and anything else is a bonus. Because as soon as results go south, it falls apart very quickly. Even more so when you're charging supporters lifetime high prices to watch the tedium.

We're in a group of teams who aren't really good enough to qualify for Europe but are nowhere near going down. We play comfortably the worst football with the worst attacking results of any of them and it's not really down to investment, because we've spent more than some and less than others. It's a deliberate approach to play negative football.

I've never previously seen a Wolves manager serve up a sizeable amount of dross and the overarching demand from the fans is for this man to be given loads of money to spend. Why, why should we trust him with it? What has he shown to even suggest he's capable of much better than what's on show? It's an alien concept to me.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Ankle injury yes. But even Coady himself says he's slow..

I just think that clip may be a little unfair as a point of evidence given that injury, but fair enough.

 

[Lycan]

Exactly Deutsch. Especially considering how he pissed the João Félix money up the wall at Benfica.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I've never previously seen a Wolves manager serve up a sizeable amount of dross

I think you're over egging it now, no we're not Brazil 1970, but we're not anywhere near Fat Sam's Bolton or anything at all like a Pulis or Hodgson side either, or Dyche's Burnley now.

McCarthy's Wolves side played less attractive football too, back then (when we were doing ok) it was seen as ok, yet this era of Wolves fans who are sitting in 8th place are desperate to see better football?

Just seems a bit entitled to me, and I say that as someone who didn't enjoy the Palace or West Ham performances at all, but i have a memory that remembers entertaining performances against Spurs, United, Leicester and Brentford. Even in the home defeat to Arsenal we didn't play bad or "dross" football, we just (as ever) struggled to put the ball in the net.

 

[redvictor]

I just think that clip may be a little unfair as a point of evidence given that injury, but fair enough.

In that clip he let Max do the running...

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

In that clip he let Max do the running...

It certainly looks that way, captain's prerogative..

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I think you're over egging it now, no we're not Brazil 1970, but we're not anywhere near Fat Sam's Bolton or anything at all like a Pulis or Hodgson side either, or Dyche's Burnley now.

I'll put up the list of what I would consider decent/good/excellent performances again:

Leicester (A)
Tottenham (H)
Man Utd (H)
Everton (H)
West Ham (H)
Brighton (A - second half only)
Man Utd (A)
Southampton (H)
Tottenham (A)

Would be amazed if anyone can credibly add to that list.

That means that over two thirds of our games have been just about average, below par, rubbish or outright terrible. It really is a sizeable amount of dross.

I watched a Hodgson team on Sunday, they were much better to watch than we are. They'll beat us on Thursday if they play like that, nailed on if they score first.