Welcome to Wolves - Jean-Ricner Bellegarde

[prawnking]

I didn't disagree, I said it was an assumption that he couldn't coach attacking football and maybe we should wait and see if he can or not before entrenching our positions. You've already dug your trench, built barricades and fortified it with barbed wire and sandbags.

I don't think that's quite fair, I don't think we should have appointed a manager of his status and experience given our own status as a decently established PL team, but I'm open to credit him if he does well.

Any manager or player can succeed or fail, but you can't ignore probability.

 

[Wolvensam]

Nuno worked as we were excellent at soaking up team pressure and counter-attacking because the players suited that system to a tee, and we’d managed to find a clinical striker for circa £30m.

We also recruited players well to suit a style of play, and then sold a couple of them and didn’t replace adequately. Then sacked Nuno and lost any kind of playing identity completely.

Brighton are successful as they have a playing identity and their recruitment identifies players who will complement that.

 

[Johnny75]

Hobbs: He’s a player the recruitment team flagged towards the end of last season, and he’s started this season very well. He’s athletic, technical and has ability to drive with the ball, and you can see from his goal and assist record that he’s had an excellent start to this season.

“He’s another player who adds to our depth and gives us something different. He will add creativity and he’s got good end product. With the runners that we have going forward, his athleticism from the middle of the pitch, as well as his strength and his ability to find that final ball – as he’s shown in France – will be really important to us

Just trying to work out what kind of player we've got here and where he's likely to fit in to our squad. Straight swap out for how Matheus was used on either flank? A change to more 3 man midfields? Depth/rotation or more of a key player?

I think we may well go 4-3-3 like Lop wanted to with Scott.

Or we could use him in a tucked in wide position as we used Nunes.

He sounds much better driving from midfield with options out wide and in front of him but his goals have him coming in from the left/ inside forward position this season.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Why is it negative to state that cheap punts = likely mediocrity?

If you disagree, feel free to explain why, rather than pursuing this odd 'negative/miserable' strawman route you've confected

Let's not pretend 'mediocrity' was your starting point for this summers work.

 

[prawnking]

None of us need to pretend, I literally used the word 'mediocre' in my first post on this thread. You can read it if you like.

Are you going to answer my questions?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

None of us need to pretend, I literally used the word 'mediocre' in my first post on this thread. You can read it if you like.

Are you going to answer my questions?

What were they again?

 

[prawnking]

What were they again?

You quoted them in your previous post

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Why is it negative to consider a 'cheap punt' mediocre?

Why is someone that's cheap necessarily even a punt? Was Dawson a punt? Would Reed have been a punt? Or would they have been steady signings with a track record of being capable at this level for a very reasonable price? Sure there's correlation between cost and effectiveness when you come to sign players but there are plenty of exceptions to that trend. There was been plenty of very expensive, and also very talented, flops to join the 'cheap punts' on the scrap heap.

I also think mediocre is the wrong choice of word to describe Wolves' summer signings, and a lot of other players outside of the elite to be honest. Is Adama Traore mediocre? His output certainly could be described as such but as a player I don't think it's the right word. Flawed, inconsistent, occasionally magnificent, but rarely anything as mundane as mediocre. These summer signings could be anything, I'd never even heard of any of them until this week. Mentioned earlier at Nunes' Sporting highlight reel, and subsequent output for Wolves, being scarcely different to this guy from Strasbourg but one was being downplayed and the other almost universally lauded, why is that?

Seems a lazy assumption to classify Wolves' summer incomings as mediocre purely on the basis of their cost, can't imagine anyone on here has actually seen much/anything of any of them in action to really judge on much beyond their cost at this point. So to me it's a negative outlook to come to that judgement, they're largely unknown, they could be brilliant like some of Brighton's recent under the radar signings or they could end up proving to be a waste of money at half the price. Only time will tell.

 

[prawnking]

Why is it negative to consider a 'cheap punt' mediocre?

Why is someone that's cheap necessarily even a punt? Was Dawson a punt? Would Reed have been a punt? Or would they have been steady signings with a track record of being capable at this level for a very reasonable price? Sure there's correlation between cost and effectiveness when you come to sign players but there are plenty of exceptions to that trend. There was been plenty of very expensive, and also very talented, flops to join the 'cheap punts' on the scrap heap.

I also think mediocre is the wrong choice of word to describe Wolves' summer signings, and a lot of other players outside of the elite to be honest. Is Adama Traore mediocre? His output certainly could be described as such but as a player I don't think it's the right word. Flawed, inconsistent, occasionally magnificent, but rarely anything as mundane as mediocre. These summer signings could be anything, I'd never even heard of any of them until this week. Mentioned earlier at Nunes' Sporting highlight reel, and subsequent output for Wolves, being scarcely different to this guy from Strasbourg but one was being downplayed and the other almost universally lauded, why is that?

Seems a lazy assumption to classify Wolves' summer incomings as mediocre purely on the basis of their cost, can't imagine anyone on here has actually seen much/anything of any of them in action to really judge on much beyond their cost at this point. So to me it's a negative outlook to come to that judgement, they're largely unknown, they could be brilliant like some of Brighton's recent under the radar signings or they could end up proving to be a waste of money at half the price. Only time will tell.

I mean, great essay but it completely ignores the entire point and content of the original exchange at the start of the thread between Del and Dire Wolf, which was actually about the manager and his coaching ability.

He was the original 'cheap punt' in question I was referring to.

Next time why not read the context before jumping in with both feet?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I mean, great essay but it completely ignores the entire point and content of the original exchange at the start of the thread between Del and Dire Wolf, which was actually about the manager and his coaching ability.

He was the original 'cheap punt' in question I was referring to.

Next time why not read the context before jumping in with both feet?

Oh so now we're not happy because I didn't answer the right question?

For the least miserable person in town you sure are tetchy and argumentative.

If you're coming back to a point on the current head coach, which is what drew my original derision, then I feel I need to return to my earlier point about your starting point being 'mediocre'.

 

[Wolvensam]

We’re all in a relative unknown here with O’Neil and these new signings. He lacks Premier League experience as a coach and they lack that experience as signings. I can appreciate that a few months ago we had a Europa League winning coach with some fully-fledged internationals in the squad, but that’s not the case anymore.

There’s a lot of tripe and over-exaggeration going in either direction: some who think O’Neil is a bumbling idiot, some who are counteracting that with letting him be given time (and thus are apparently settling for Wolves not being competitive) and it’s the same with the new signings: they’re cheap so not very good, and the other side is saying maybe we have a bargain or two/appreciating these players may supplement the squad and eventually the first eleven. Maybe, just maybe, some fans are just willing to wait it out and see if the coach and players gel - it’s a huge risk and I’ll be holding my hands up if it fails. I think it’ll be a really tough season as there’s zero time to bed in. If you go on Newcastle’s forums they’re berating Eddie Howe and their poor recruitment and actually I think they’ve done well in comparison to others - ourselves included.

The truth is I was annoyed as anyone when Lopetegui left, Nunes too - but we can’t keep martyring (for want of a better phrase) managers and players who just didn’t want to be here and, in Nunes’ case, disrespected the club who are their employer. They’ve gone, it’s over. Plenty of people spend hundreds of pounds to follow this team around the country (I’m not one, I can’t afford it) and they deserve better than what Fosun, Lopetegui, Nunes have given them this past few months.

Whatever the outcome, it’s just all getting a bit tiring now calling each other out because some of us want to give GON time, some of us don’t, and the same goes for the new signings too.

 

[Mel Evo]

We’re all in a relative unknown here with O’Neil and these new signings. He lacks Premier League experience as a coach and they lack that experience as signings. I can appreciate that a few months ago we had a Europa League winning coach with some fully-fledged internationals in the squad, but that’s not the case anymore.

There’s a lot of tripe and over-exaggeration going in either direction: some who think O’Neil is a bumbling idiot, some who are counteracting that with letting him be given time (and thus are apparently settling for Wolves not being competitive) and it’s the same with the new signings: they’re cheap so not very good, and the other side is saying maybe we have a bargain or two/appreciating these players may supplement the squad and eventually the first eleven. Maybe, just maybe, some fans are just willing to wait it out and see if the coach and players gel - it’s a huge risk and I’ll be holding my hands up if it fails. I think it’ll be a really tough season as there’s zero time to bed in. If you go on Newcastle’s forums they’re berating Eddie Howe and their poor recruitment and actually I think they’ve done well in comparison to others - ourselves included.

The truth is I was annoyed as anyone when Lopetegui left, Nunes too - but we can’t keep martyring (for want of a better phrase) managers and players who just didn’t want to be here and, in Nunes’ case, disrespected the club who are their employer. They’ve gone, it’s over. Plenty of people spend hundreds of pounds to follow this team around the country (I’m not one, I can’t afford it) and they deserve better than what Fosun, Lopetegui, Nunes have given them this past few months.

Whatever the outcome, it’s just all getting a bit tiring now calling each other out because some of us want to give GON time, some of us don’t, and the same goes for the new signings too.

I think a lot of that is very reasonable and I respect the ‘measure’, certainly.

There is a good bit of slight of hand with your argument though, maybe unintentional. You cite ‘tripe and over-exaggeration in either direction’ but then demonstrate it with two examples which show ‘over-exaggeration’ only on the side you disagree with, and some pretty balanced opinions on the side you agree with. Makes the former look unhinged and the latter sensible.

Personally I don’t think it’s unreasonable if you’re invested in the club (financially, emotionally, both, whatever) to look at the full sweep of the summer and be pretty unimpressed. I’m not having a bunch of demonstrably underwhelming signings being managed by someone with no track record being passed off as ‘good’ just because the only plausible alternative had quickly been presented as complete and utter disintegration. I’m can’t agree with fans who seem to buy in to the Fosun spin that Lopetegui was anti-Wolves, just because his aspirations for the club were the same as my aspirations. Someone on this forum will laugh at that, but surely all true fans dream of us competing and being equipped to compete as Lopetegui did. His antics as he tried to force that through don’t concern me.

You can both think the above and desperately hope to win today, next week and beyond. You can think it and turn up at the ground and support, not boo your own team, stick it out to the end. But you are allowed to think it, and you might well be right.

 

[Wolvensam]

I think a lot of that is very reasonable and I respect the ‘measure’, certainly.

There is a good bit of slight of hand with your argument though, maybe unintentional. You cite ‘tripe and over-exaggeration in either direction’ but then demonstrate it with two examples which show ‘over-exaggeration’ only on the side you disagree with, and some pretty balanced opinions on the side you agree with. Makes the former look unhinged and the latter sensible.

Personally I don’t think it’s unreasonable if you’re invested in the club (financially, emotionally, both, whatever) to look at the full sweep of the summer and be pretty unimpressed. I’m not having a bunch of demonstrably underwhelming signings being managed by someone with no track record being passed off as ‘good’ just because the only plausible alternative had quickly been presented as complete and utter disintegration. I’m can’t agree with fans who seem to buy in to the Fosun spin that Lopetegui was anti-Wolves, just because his aspirations for the club were the same as my aspirations. Someone on this forum will laugh at that, but surely all true fans dream of us competing and being equipped to compete as Lopetegui did. His antics as he tried to force that through don’t concern me.

You can both think the above and desperately hope to win today, next week and beyond. You can think it and turn up at the ground and support, not boo your own team, stick it out to the end. But you are allowed to think it, and you might well be right.

I haven’t really seen much over-exaggeration in the opposite direction (e.g. O’Neil is going to take us to Europe), just a few people being measured that they’ll give him 10-15 games and wait it out. Forgive me if I’ve missed anything.

 

[Wolvensam]

I also agree that I want the club’s ambitions to match my own - did I want to keep Lopetegui? Yes. Did I want to keep Nunes? Yes. And I also wanted us to invest heavily as I believe we would have finished top half.

But I’m not going to blame GON and the new signings for that or target anything in their direction, for the moment. I will blame the board.

 

[Dire Wolf]

I may have missed it too, but barring one OTT poster I can't recall seeing anyone say that O'Neil is going to be good? The 'balance' to the negatives is that some are in a wait and see mode and haven't drawn their lines in the sand.

To me Lopetegui and Nunes can be viewed similarly, both were here to further their own ends. Good riddance to both of them. And yes, we've downgraded from Lop to GON, but I'll take a manager that is happy to be here and is driven to prove people wrong rather than a man who's there to make a shit load of money and is not committed to the cause, whether that's O'Neil or someone else.

 

[prawnking]

Oh so now we're not happy because I didn't answer the right question?

For the least miserable person in town you sure are tetchy and argumentative.

If you're coming back to a point on the current head coach, which is what drew my original derision, then I feel I need to return to my earlier point about your starting point being 'mediocre'.

I have little idea what you're even arguing about now?

I don't have a problem with players like Dawson (in fact I've argued recently that we're too quick to dismiss players like that) or Reed, and I'm generally fine with the signings, especially as they were so late in the day. I just don't think it tips the window beyond 'average'at best. Certainly not an extreme or negative viewpoint worthy of one of your 'derision'. And if you can't see how 'cheap', 'punt' and 'cheap punt' are three distinct categories then I'm not going to explain it to you.

My stance is simple; when managers and players are unheralded, with unknown or limited profiles and experience, it makes more sense to presume that most will be pretty average, which usually turns out to be the case. That's a pretty mild viewpoint. If it were a negative viewpoint, I'd have said managers and players like that are total shit and bound to fail.

Del was hinting at O'Neil's likely average qualities when talking about training, Dire Wolf took exception to that, and I put my two penneth in. Until I see otherwise, I don't see how it's likely at this stage that O'Neil is some kind of mini-Pep that no-one else in football has spotted except Matt Hobbs, and he's going to come in after an experienced Lop team and tear the place up. Of course, in time he may have a high ceiling, none of us know that so it's a pointless avenue to consider with zero evidence.

Now, the crux of the matter is this; if you're saying you feel it's likely that GON and the new signings are more likely to be above average, and even excellent, then what is behind that thought process? What that has gone on at Wolves in the past few years that would lead anyone to confidently believe that the senior team at Wolves are so on the ball that they can recognise and acquire low/no profile managers and players that have the potential to be top PL competitors? They will stumble across some for sure, just like some acquisitions that look great on paper just don't work, but they've done nothing to engender such confidence.

If anything, I'd suggest a healthy cynicism towards everything they do would be more appropriate for Wolves fans?

 

[prawnking]

I'll take a manager that is happy to be here and is driven to prove people wrong rather than a man who's there to make a shit load of money and is not committed to the cause, whether that's O'Neil or someone else.

Even if that manager took us down?

I'd be happy to be here and driven to prove people wrong. Can I have the job?

 

[prawnking]

But I’m not going to blame GON and the new signings for that or target anything in their direction, for the moment. I will blame the board.

But you also trust that board to have appointed the best manager possible for the best reasons?

 

[Dire Wolf]

I have little idea what you're even arguing about now?

I don't have a problem with players like Dawson (in fact I've argued recently that we're too quick to dismiss players like that) or Reed, and I'm generally fine with the signings, especially as they were so late in the day. I just don't think it tips the window beyond 'average'at best. Certainly not an extreme or negative viewpoint worthy of one of your 'derision'. And if you can't see how 'cheap', 'punt' and 'cheap punt' are three distinct categories then I'm not going to explain it to you.

My stance is simple; when managers and players are unheralded, with unknown or limited profiles and experience, it makes more sense to presume that most will be be pretty average, which usually turns out to be the case. That's a pretty mild viewpoint. If it were a negative viewpoint, I'd have said managers and players like that are total shit and bound to fail.

Del was hinting at O'Neil's likely average qualities when talking about training, Dire Wolf took exception to that, and I put my two penneth in. Until I see otherwise, I don't see how it's likely at this stage that O'Neil is some kind of mini-Pep that no-one else in football has spotted except Matt Hobbs, and he's going to come in after an experienced Lop team and tear the place up. Of course, in time he may have a high ceiling, none of us know that so it's a pointless avenue to consider with zero evidence.

Now, the crux of the matter is this; if you're saying you feel it's likely that GON and the new signings are more likely to be above average, and even excellent, then what is behind that thought process? What that has gone on at Wolves in the past few years that would lead anyone to confidently believe that the senior team at Wolves are so on the ball that they can recognise and acquire low/no profile managers and players that have the potential to be top PL competitors? They will stumble across some for sure, just like some acquisitions that look great on paper just don't work, but they've done nothing to engender such confidence.

If anything, I'd suggest a healthy cynicism towards everything they do would be more appropriate for Wolves fans?

Well that's pretty bollocks isn't it? Del said categorically that O'Neil can't coach attacking play and all I said was that's a bit of an assumption. You stuck your oar in being all high and mighty as you do and decided that I'd adopted a position that I hadn't. Off to ignore you go, you tiresome little man.

 

[Wolvensam]

But you also trust that board to have appointed the best manager possible for the best reasons?

I think given our circumstances, which is by their choice and their design, they think they’ve appointed the best man.