The Rugby Thread

[Paddingtonwolf]

World Cup final could well be France v Ireland. Ireland were astounding this morning. Brilliant perrformance.

 

[1986]

World Cup final could well be France v Ireland. Ireland were astounding this morning. Brilliant perrformance.

Can't be . . .on the same side of the draw I think ?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Depends. If they both finish top of their groups then they are same side, But if one qualifies second they drop into the other half.

I think!

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Depends. If they both finish top of their groups then they are same side, But if one qualifies second they drop into the other half.

I think!

Your right, both finish top (or both 2nd) of their group can't meet till the final.
Meet in Qf if one finishes top and other 2nd.

Saying that with New Zealand in same group as France & Springbok and Scotland in with Ireland nothing guaranteed.

 

[1986]

Ryan Jones . Another sorry story .

It's all about the heavy hits these days . Teams gloat about them - but there are long term consequences for some .

Tackles below the waist only simply must come in .

 

[Johnny75]

Ryan Jones . Another sorry story .

It's all about the heavy hits these days . Teams gloat about them - but there are long term consequences for some .

Tackles below the waist only simply must come in .

There needs to be more education for all. Better coaching and awareness across all levels.

Tackles below the waist can be just as dangerous if technique isn’t good enough. There is a fair amount of evidence to say hits below nipple height are best rather than waist alone.

And whilst it is concussion (TBI) that gets the major story it is the cumulative sub concussive head hits that cause CTE (what folks call punch drunk). That’s harder to stop without banning the game.

I’d be tempted to put a weight limit on players as they do in boxing.

In a roundabout way you are right about big hits and the way to reduce that is by reducing player mass.

 

[Tredman]

I’d be tempted to put a weight limit on players as they do in boxing.

That would be ideal - in NZ junior rugby is segmented by weight rather than age. Some of the professional players size is ridiculous.

 

[1986]

Yes - but do you notice the way that players celebrate a huge hit , even though it might well be doing a small bit of damage to the player making the hit - or being hit - if the tackle is not correct .

There have always been large players in Rugby , tall players , heavy players etc . It's pretty much impossible to change that .

There are now more and more cards being issued in the game and correctly so . The card issued to Andrew Porter on Saturday was very costly for Ireland - we conceded two tries while he was in the bin . That might just get people to sit up and listen .
However , it is the short period of the subsequent suspension that needs to be addressed . Make it as long as possible , make it hurt .

Education is huge here , starting at a very young age . However , this growing trend among head coaches who want a sent off player replaced straight away needs to stop - that's no punishment .

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

A lot of the worst concussions aren't suffered by the player tackled but by the tackler when they get their head the wrong side of the tackle impact and take a knee etc to the temple. That needs to be looked at too.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

I don't know how to feel about this, its a sport I love and I have always enjoyed the physical aspect of the game. I also understand the duty of care and that there is a very real link between repeated concussions and brain issues.

You can't introduce weight/size limits imo it just wouldn't work. The way to reduce size on the pitch is by reducing the 'specialist' positions, by reducing interchanges (and even reducing the number of people on the pitch) you will ask them to be more athletic and less specialised, there are of course reasons for non of that to happen.

If you want an idea of how the professional game changed the shape of union players Lawrence Dallaglio is a good example of how he changed his body shape from his early days as amateur to how he finished up playing a professional game.

At a junior level concussion is treated very seriously these days, Headcase training is mandatory every couple of years for Coaches and pushed for parents to take it too. I do have doubts over it being supported across all the institutions and more work probably needs to go into recognising this.

There is of course the element of it was fine in my day and it did me no harm, but that is loosing ground as most people recognise the dangers now with the RFU really pushing it, and club rugby has recognised this and follow head injury protocol for players

It is of course the tackler who is in most danger of doing themselves a concussion, either fatigue or just reading the tackle wrong often causes this, the cards is another matter. It is clear that the RFU are taking a hard line stance on this but there will always be an element of head contact, I'm not sure this is punishable with yellow and Red Cards in some of the instances that I have seen, it has also changed the dynamic of games where it has been an accidental or inevitable high shot. I also dislike slo-mo replays that do not represent actions in real time, but this is a personal belief.

The sad thing about this and publicity it causes in all of this is that to a casual parent or potential player they will only see the link between brain injuries and rugby and in a sport that is difficult enough to get players interested in from non rugby backgrounds (certainly in non rugby towns) put off potential new players

 

[Tredman]

Must admit I don’t think I’d be that annoyed if my kids decided to give it up - they are going into the U14s this season but as they were born end of August are playing with, and against, kids a lot bigger than them. It’s not nice to watch at times - I say this as someone who played rugby for almost 20 years. It’s very different now, even down at the younger age groups.

 

[Johnny75]

I don't know how to feel about this, its a sport I love and I have always enjoyed the physical aspect of the game. I also understand the duty of care and that there is a very real link between repeated concussions and brain issues.

You can't introduce weight/size limits imo it just wouldn't work. The way to reduce size on the pitch is by reducing the 'specialist' positions, by reducing interchanges (and even reducing the number of people on the pitch) you will ask them to be more athletic and less specialised, there are of course reasons for non of that to happen.

If you want an idea of how the professional game changed the shape of union players Lawrence Dallaglio is a good example of how he changed his body shape from his early days as amateur to how he finished up playing a professional game.

At a junior level concussion is treated very seriously these days, Headcase training is mandatory every couple of years for Coaches and pushed for parents to take it too. I do have doubts over it being supported across all the institutions and more work probably needs to go into recognising this.

There is of course the element of it was fine in my day and it did me no harm, but that is loosing ground as most people recognise the dangers now with the RFU really pushing it, and club rugby has recognised this and follow head injury protocol for players

It is of course the tackler who is in most danger of doing themselves a concussion, either fatigue or just reading the tackle wrong often causes this, the cards is another matter. It is clear that the RFU are taking a hard line stance on this but there will always be an element of head contact, I'm not sure this is punishable with yellow and Red Cards in some of the instances that I have seen, it has also changed the dynamic of games where it has been an accidental or inevitable high shot. I also dislike slo-mo replays that do not represent actions in real time, but this is a personal belief.

The sad thing about this and publicity it causes in all of this is that to a casual parent or potential player they will only see the link between brain injuries and rugby and in a sport that is difficult enough to get players interested in from non rugby backgrounds (certainly in non rugby towns) put off potential new players

Size does matter. Reducing mass is the most important variable in a head injury. (E=1/2mv2).

I'm not convinced by headcase training as it is based on old science and has a political element which is under increased scrutiny. Barry O'Driscoll is critical of it and with good reason.

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

Size does matter. Reducing mass is the most important variable in a head injury. (E=1/2mv2).

I'm not convinced by headcase training as it is based on old science and has a political element which is under increased scrutiny. Barry O'Driscoll is critical of it and with good reason.

Size does matter, not sure where I said it didn't, but introducing size restrictions is unworkable imo and goes against the grain of rugby. Reducing the size of players through altering the game is where I would approach it, rather than introducing rules that exclude players

You may have some professional doubts about headcase training, but it is something that has been pushed to every level of the game (well RFU) and has raised awareness and responsibility for concussions within the game to be treated seriously, and that as an achievement should not be underestimated.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Would also help if the calender and demands on the players means that they get little time for rest and recovery when they do get banged up especially when alot of these issues are cumulative, might not be one serious bang, but lots of small ones which don't show up but with little rest for the body to recover.
The season finished on Saturday, the first set of domestic games in the European leagues will be in 6 or 7 weeks.
Even if the front line players are not playing matches, they will be in training (even though a lot of it is non contact) in a few weeks time.
In the NRL players are given a clear 6 week window between end of the season and starting preseason, NFL would presume is longer.
Receipe for olenty more like Ryan Jones coming down the line.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Size does matter, not sure where I said it didn't, but introducing size restrictions is unworkable imo and goes against the grain of rugby. Reducing the size of players through altering the game is where I would approach it, rather than introducing rules that exclude players

You may have some professional doubts about headcase training, but it is something that has been pushed to every level of the game (well RFU) and has raised awareness and responsibility for concussions within the game to be treated seriously, and that as an achievement should not be underestimated.

If that's how the All Blacks do it (split by size rather than age) I would respectfully suggest it works.

 

[Tredman]

It does only solve it at age grade rugby unfortunately

 

[Newbridge Wolf]

If that's how the All Blacks do it (split by size rather than age) I would respectfully suggest it works.

They still organise on age grade, it's just the biggest lads play up a year. Whilst it sounds sensible you're taking away a year of development from the kid, it's why no one else does it.

It could ultimately benefit them as being a freak in size at an early age, if not careful can lead to an underdevelopment in technique and skills. Once the rest catch catch them up physically (which most do) then they can be found wanting.

I find that playing up us better than the trend that I've seen (certainly in Staffs) of playing children down a year, now that is an absolute nutty idea.

And yes I was talking about the senior game originally, the only way to reduce size is to change aspects of the game to prevent the extremem specialism of positions

 

[Tredman]

That’s not allowed is it? Though I can think of one club we’ve regularly played who try to sneak overage players into the team.

 

[Johnny75]

They still organise on age grade, it's just the biggest lads play up a year. Whilst it sounds sensible you're taking away a year of development from the kid, it's why no one else does it.

It could ultimately benefit them as being a freak in size at an early age, if not careful can lead to an underdevelopment in technique and skills. Once the rest catch catch them up physically (which most do) then they can be found wanting.

I find that playing up us better than the trend that I've seen (certainly in Staffs) of playing children down a year, now that is an absolute nutty idea.

And yes I was talking about the senior game originally, the only way to reduce size is to change aspects of the game to prevent the extremem specialism of positions

You keep saying this and it isn't true.

 

[Donegal Wolf]

Size does matter. Reducing mass is the most important variable in a head injury. (E=1/2mv2).

I'm not convinced by headcase training as it is based on old science and has a political element which is under increased scrutiny. Barry O'Driscoll is critical of it and with good reason.

Heard him on the radio last week, was interviewed for 20mins as you said believes the whole system is not fit for purpose.