Team built for 3 at the back

[PuntsWolf]

I'd like to expand on these 2 posts.

Firstly, it seems too big a coincidence that 5/6 PL wins have come with a 5, I appreciate our 2 heaviest defeats also did. You could even argue the one win with 4 was more about circumstance, given the motivation post the Raul injury. Also nobody can convince me it was a planned formation change, it was a reaction to a lack of creavity. Neither Semedo or RAN were signed to play full back, so WB was the original intention imo.

All of our wide defenders can play both positions, but that doesn't mean the team can. In a 4 we still expect the full backs to push high up whilst the centre mids don't track runners - YW broke this down better than I can, but it's leaving the centre halves exposed more than would be the case with an extra man.

Boly is our best centre half defending one on one, but as we know he can have his switching off moments and to honest, parking his leadership, we'd be better off with Dunk or Mee than Coady at the moment. In a 4 he will have to be sacrificed sooner rather than later for a conventional centre half.

I also noticed that Semedo was making Dohertyesque runs inside Adama yesterday rather than both looking to take up the same areas, but Traore didn't look up and spot them. Improve that and we'll be more dangerous

I’d argue it is coincidence. It’s a tiny sample size firstly, secondly 2 of the wins were against a Sheff Utd side who are god awful and a Fulham team who at the time were just as bad. 2 of the wins (Chelsea and Leeds) came when we were playing low block and counter, which is the style rather than the formation and the win against Palace was one of the most bizarre set ups from an opposing team ever (and we just beat them in a 4, albeit a changed team).

They definitely were signed as WBs, but I don’t necessarily say that’s their best position.

The midfield aren’t tracking runners, but there wasn’t runners to really track before as in the low block 9 outfield players were either in the area or just outside - agains tactics not formation. That need to either be rectified by pushing the back line higher up or the midfield deeper, or press higher so the situation doesn’t develop in the first place (obviously introduces other issues like the ball over the top).

Roger Johnson was incredible for Blues in a 4 playing in the lowest of low blocks. Bring him to wolves where we didn’t do that and he looks terrible.

Would we be better with better defenders, absolutely, who wouldn’t. But we’re not picking from dreadful players. Saiss and Boly are better than Richard Stearman, Roger Johnson etc.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Whereas the flat 433 we just don't have the player for and seems to leave us more open anyway. Two defensive midfielders should also let our full backs play higher to help us create more.

Absolutely. We have Donck basically playing as a second striker and Moutinho in no mans land doing neither defending or creating. It’s crazy.

People are probably fed up of me rambling on like a broken record but I won’t let it go!

 

[Johnny75]

Absolutely. We have Donck basically playing as a second striker and Moutinho in no mans land doing neither defending or creating. It’s crazy.

People are probably fed up of me rambling on like a broken record but I won’t let it go!

I agree with this.

Leicester play a 4-3-3 excellently well with Ndidi doing the breaking up play and 2 number 8's (midfielders running forward). They also have Vardy to do the pressing.

We don't have any of those players.

Both fullbacks overlap and both wide players can play in or out.

We have all of those players which will tell you the problem is the midfield and forward set up rather than the wide players.

 

[Paul]

I agree with this.

Don't agree with him, he won't shut up for weeks now !!!

 

[redvictor]

I agree with this.

Leicester play a 4-3-3 excellently well with Ndidi doing the breaking up play and 2 number 8's (midfielders running forward). They also have Vardy to do the pressing.

We don't have any of those players.

Both fullbacks overlap and both wide players can play in or out.

We have all of those players which will tell you the problem is the midfield and forward set up rather than the wide players.

When you have a Vardy up front it makes it a whole different world. We basically have no one to link midfield with the forwards. A Bruno Fernandez player. Maybe we have, but he hasn't played or shown himself yet. Vitinha maybe has looked the only one that could do it, but he's a kid and not fully there yet. And yes, i know plenty of others have said AM is needed.

 

[Johnny75]

When you have a Vardy up front it makes it a whole different world. We basically have no one to link midfield with the forwards. A Bruno Fernandez player. Maybe we have, but he hasn't played or shown himself yet. Vitinha maybe has looked the only one that could do it, but he's a kid and not fully there yet. And yes, i know plenty of others have said AM is needed.

If we had a fluid front 3 of that quality, space for Neves and the full backs becomes a whole lot more available.

You can see that with how Liverpool and City play.

If we play a 4-3-3 we would need a playmaking 8 like Tielemans. If in a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 then I think Neves and Otasowie/ Donk would be more than good enough centrally.

 

[redvictor]

If we had a fluid front 3 of that quality, space for Neves and the full backs becomes a whole lot more available.

You can see that with how Liverpool and City play.

If we play a 4-3-3 we would need a playmaking 8 like Tielemans. If in a 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 then I think Neves and Otasowie/ Donk would be more than good enough centrally.

Neves would be so good as one. He has the ability to win tackles, and can spread the ball on a sixpence. Needs the players around him to be able to thought. Liverpools front 3 weren't so at it tonight though. Neto, Traore and Jimenez are fluid, particularly when Traore is. Unfortunately he wasn't before Raul's injury.

 

[The Bear]

If we played a 4-3-3 I'd want to see this:

Rui

Semedo - Coady - Boly - Marcal

Donk - Neves - Otasawie

Neto - Silva - Podence​

Donk and Owen can both roam forwards from midfield in those No.8 positions. Harsh on Moutinho but I think the last 18 months are catching up with him and he needs to be used more sparingly.

 

[PuntsWolf]

If we played a 4-3-3 I'd want to see this:

Rui

Semedo - Coady - Boly - Marcal

Donk - Neves - Otasawie

Neto - Silva - Podence​

Donk and Owen can both roam forwards from midfield in those No.8 positions. Harsh on Moutinho but I think the last 18 months are catching up with him and he needs to be used more sparingly.

That would be just as dreadful as the current set up as it fixes none of the current issues and just amplifies them.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Rui is better with a sweeper do if you want to play Rui it’s a back three. There is no other option. If you want a four go Ruddy but he is not as capable as Rui. It’s the toss up. Horses for courses , round pegs round holes and all that.
I would have Donk Coady Boly as the three as both Donk and Boly can cover their wing backs. In midfield it’s Neves and Otasowie. Otasowie has the stamina and the legs to go box to box. Samedo and RAN as wing backs with an attacking mindset. Neither are great defenders. Neto as the 10 behind Cutrone and Traore.

 

[YoungWolf]

That would be just as dreadful as the current set up as it fixes none of the current issues and just amplifies them.

Agree. Dendoncker and Otasowie as eights would be seriously lacking in creativity IMO

 

[Premier Quality]

That would be just as dreadful as the current set up as it fixes none of the current issues and just amplifies them.

Agreed - there’s no point asking Donk to break forwards, he’s better sitting back where he can win the ball, rather than using his god awful finishing skills.

MGW is the only one we have that can break the lines in midfield and has the technique to shoot or create something when he gets forward, he has to start.

 

[Jabbawolf]

Agreed - there’s no point asking Donk to break forwards, he’s better sitting back where he can win the ball, rather than using his god awful finishing skills.

MGW is the only one we have that can break the lines in midfield and has the technique to shoot or create something when he gets forward, he has to start.

I’ve seen no evidence of that at all....

 

[redvictor]

I’ve seen no evidence of that at all....

The latter obviously...

 

[Premier Quality]

I’ve seen no evidence of that at all....

Give him a few games and you would.

 

[Paul]

Neves would be so good as one. He has the ability to win tackles, and can spread the ball on a sixpence. Needs the players around him to be able to thought. Liverpools front 3 weren't so at it tonight though. Neto, Traore and Jimenez are fluid, particularly when Traore is. Unfortunately he wasn't before Raul's injury.

Please elaborate on how Traore is fluid ? His interplay with others is average at best, when he's doing 'his thing' he's one of the most electrifying people in the game, but it rarely involves another player, could you imagine if he managed a one two at speed, he'd be gone

 

[pacamac]

Semedo doesn't work in a back 4 he can't defend, Nuno tried to give him some help defensively Saturday by putting our best (on paper) defender over his side which just meant Coady looked so uncomfortable from the very get go.

 

[Carrotdude]

I think going back to 3-4-3 is our best option right now. Semedo and Ait-Nouri can provide the width and both look good going forwards. The key for me is getting Traore and Neto to play narrower and closer to Silva (or even try them on opposite sides so they do it naturally). That way Neves can sit and Donk can break forward and be a nuisance if nothing else.

Our wing backs have been so vital to our play since Nuno took over and at the start of this season we basically didn’t have any so our game suffered. I think going back now would be beneficial as if we keep doing what we’re doing I don’t see how we win games as we just can’t defend.

 

[YoungWolf]

If we are going back to 343 I'd play Podence and Neto as the inside forwards. A bit harsh on Traore who's form has improved but we just end up with him on the touchline and a big gap between him and the central forward.

 

[Tredman]

I’d invert them, Traore is playing well but at the moment is still looking for a target man. Let’s get him causing havoc on the left opening space up for Neto and our new striker.