REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[playtheace]

Not either way or side but I think a ref2 would see even more folks vote leave (or perhaps that's based on most folks I work along)
Also think labour would get crushed in a GE

 

[Tom Hark]

I hear you buddy but what do we know now that we didn't know prior to the vote and to be fair it was laid on quite heavily. The predictions that were made for the period between the vote and the original exit date haven't exactly materialised. High unemployment, etc ... real stuff, not ill-informed stuff like the downturn globally in care sales is due to Brexit etc when it actually isn't. Investment into this country since 2016 is higher than both France and Germany put together? What happens in ref2 when perhaps we then vote to remain and the leave voters ask for another referendum because they also feel the proles were ill-informed again?

We also now all know that no EU does not mean no Johnny Foreigners, which I believe was something in many leavers' minds. (I'm not suggesting it was in yours.) I really don't see that the 'ill-informed' objection would be any more plausible in ref2 than in a GE where the 'wrong' side wins. However, as I said earlier, I don't think it was only leavers who were ill informed in ref1; it was everybody. If the leave arguments are so strong, maybe they'll convince previous remainers.

 

[Tony Towner]

Corbyn pulls out of talks, so my predicted chain of events:

Brexit Party comfortably largest at Euro elections

May Deal fails again first week of June

May goes end June

Johnson is PM as although Tory MP's hate him they think he'll be the best option electorally so being Tories side on self interest

Johnson wants no deal but can't get it through Parliament

General Election

Tories get working majority

EU gives further extension
Johnson negotiates very little if much different to that achieved by May

No deal or hard Brexit in first half of 2020

Britain is screwed for at least the next two decades

...not going to be too far off

 

[nimrod]

The problem being when you take democracy away from the people you are verging on a fascist state ...

it’s not really a people’s democracy though is it - it’s a parliamentary one. and the people have generally been restricted to a choice of two in terms of who forms a government. not very sophisticated at the “people” level is it, particularly if one of the choices is periodically unelectable? and you only need c 36% for a majority which still seems to entitle the ‘winner’ to claim it has a mandate.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

The problem being when you take democracy away from the people you are verging on a fascist state ...

Not really. It’s much of a dictatorship under the current goon

 

[Johnny75]

An apparent leak has Cummings saying the negotiations with the EU are a sham.

Anybody would think this is all staged for a GE and no deal dictatorship. Fascism at full speed.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Cummings is a dangerous man.

 

[Sniffer]

An apparent leak has Cummings saying the negotiations with the EU are a sham.

Anybody would think this is all staged for a GE and no deal dictatorship. Fascism at full speed.

Where is this reported Johnny?

 

[Sniffer]

Labour and the other anti no deal parties need to vote against any snap election if they manage to win the vote.

 

[Sniffer]

Justine Greening announces that she won't be standing at the next election.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Brexit does some strange things! A party in power voting for a snap election and the opposition refusing to consent would certainly be different.

 

[Tredman]

Where is this reported Johnny?

Telegraph of all places

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1168641286292824064?s=19

 

[Aikiwolf]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/...no-deal-brexit/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

Long but interesting

 

[Tony Towner]

Labour and the other anti no deal parties need to vote against any snap election if they manage to win the vote.

Not sure Corbyn is smart enough for that. Blair has called it correctly though

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Even if they do, Boris can get round it with a one line bill that won’t need the two thirds majority

 

[Langers]

The Stourbridge MP is thought to be amongst the Tory rebels.

 

[Sniffer]

Even if they do, Boris can get round it with a one line bill that won’t need the two thirds majority

It would need to be passed by the house though wouldn't it? If he doesn't have enough votes to beat the stop the no deal legislation then would he have enough to pass a majority for a general election?

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Possibly. Sort of depends on labour completely voting against and a few Tory rebels staying onside for all three votes I guess. The parliamentary arithmetic is going to get messy later.

 

[Papper]

We also now all know that no EU does not mean no Johnny Foreigners, which I believe was something in many leavers' minds. (I'm not suggesting it was in yours.) I really don't see that the 'ill-informed' objection would be any more plausible in ref2 than in a GE where the 'wrong' side wins. However, as I said earlier, I don't think it was only leavers who were ill informed in ref1; it was everybody. If the leave arguments are so strong, maybe they'll convince previous remainers.

I would point more of a failure to manage the population. I posted earlier a few figures and by my calculation given the rise in population between 2000 & 2010 compared 2010 and 2020 we have a shorfall in public spending of just shy of £500 Billion (if we were to keep up the equilibrium). The rate that population grew has doubled. If you accept a rise in population of 4 million every decade you need a viable plan to match the extra spending required. I also posted a link highlighing the negaive impact freedom of movement has on countries like Lithuania - but rightly or wrongly I feel FoM is a corporate tool to provide cheap labour.

 

[Papper]

it’s not really a people’s democracy though is it - it’s a parliamentary one. and the people have generally been restricted to a choice of two in terms of who forms a government. not very sophisticated at the “people” level is it, particularly if one of the choices is periodically unelectable? and you only need c 36% for a majority which still seems to entitle the ‘winner’ to claim it has a mandate.

No, it definately isn't a peoples democracy when a remain parliament fails to deliver the results of a national referendum. The current situation just shows how dysfunctional proportional representation could be. As has been pointed out manifestos are loose and they take decisions on our behalf - guess that's why we end up bombing the fuck out of the Middle East despite large scale protestation. Just go the whole hog and fuck the proles and let them decide global strategy at places like Bilderberg - which is probably closer to the reality than we imagine. It is unikely a democracy can ever be served by high consensus but each day goes by I get more cynical and more apolitical because I strongly feel corporations are put before people. Society is fucked ....