REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[thehistorymakers]

People can sign an Opt-Out to the 48 hour week. It means companies can no longer force employees to work more than 48 hours. People have the choice to work more if they choose.



I have already admitted that the EU system isn't perfect. Why is that you only pin the blame on the EU though? Nothing for our government to take responsibility for? Probably just easier to say it's the EU's fault.



I'm not sure on the reason for these things disappearing. Not sure if this came from the EU, our government, or there was just no legislation so companies collectively started stopping it. I know that in my company, anyone with contracts before March 2008 get double time on all public holidays, people with contracts after that don't. Can you show me how the EU put a stop to this (genuinely, I don't know if they did or didn't)



You can look to our government for that.



How many of these things you've mentioned are directly from EU directive? Genuine question, I don't know. You have pinned them all on the EU so can you back this up?



Not just agency workers have been getting zero hours contracts. Permanent employees too. Protection for agency workers means they get the same rights as permanent employees (holiday, 48 hour weeks, guaranteed days off etc)

So, from all the things I listed you ignored everything except the 48 hour week (which I've now explained to you how it works) and extra pay on Bank holidays etc (which I've asked you to show me that the EU stopped this, as I'm not sure if they did or didn't)

So I'm guessing you are happy with the other things I listed that the EU put in place, which are now no longer guaranteed?

Good points, but I think our different perspectives are a generation thing.
If you are a worker and the cost of living has gone up, but your wages haven't and you have a family to feed, you have no choice about the 48 hours. You need to work them to survive.
Companies took away our better working conditions, because with free movement, they had many people who would do the same job, not ask for overtime, be more flexible and basically do What ever was asked. Of course you have to put this in the context that their salaries often quadrupled over night, as the person who had helped build the company up and wanted workers protection and a fair wage was surplus to requirements.
The person that lost his job would go on benifits or to another job, with low wages, zero hour contracts and no job security. At the end of the day the government often have to subsidise low wages, many of the 4 million workers living in poverty etc, at the expense of the taxpayer. So not only do people end up paying taxes to subsidise low -paid workers, but indirectly they are helping the multinationals. It is a win win situation for the wealthy. This is bad enough, but when the fortunate and we'll educated look down on the working class and try to blame us for voting to try to change the very system that keeps them wealthy and makes the poor, poorer, it affects you and makes you want to fight harder to have a better future.
The working class have been decimated, almost become destitute in many southern EU countries. The contemptuous blackmail you hear from the liberals, who have never had it so good, is shocking. They say the EU subsidies will stop, that is always their threat, the as in Scotland, but in the case of southern EU, the subsidies aren't seen by the poor or low-paid. Those subsidies keep the middle class in work, not the low-paid.

The others on your list, my opinion would be those working directives have done nothing for the million of low-paid workers, millions who have to emigrate and leave their families behind to find work. I see desolation in many Southern EU countries and people working in poverty and who had no hope in the UK.

 

[leedswolf]

I live in an area of mixed private and social housing. I have lived in this area since 1979. I have friends who are African, Asian and European. Does this make me a racialist?

<edit> I drink in the Western too if that helps.

 

[So Long Architect]

I think it's all the other races who are being racist by avoiding being my friend. Keeping themselves to themselves, the bastards - why won't they integrate more and at the same time be much much less in number?

 

[Stan Hullis]

I think it's all the other races who are being racist by avoiding being my friend. Keeping themselves to themselves, the bastards - why won't they integrate more and at the same time be much much less in number?

Do the right thing SLA and move your family to Woking, so that you can better integrate with these people.

 

[visage]

Good points, but I think our different perspectives are a generation thing.
If you are a worker and the cost of living has gone up, but your wages haven't and you have a family to feed, you have no choice about the 48 hours. You need to work them to survive.
Companies took away our better working conditions, because with free movement, they had many people who would do the same job, not ask for overtime, be more flexible and basically do What ever was asked. Of course you have to put this in the context that their salaries often quadrupled over night, as the person who had helped build the company up and wanted workers protection and a fair wage was surplus to requirements.
The person that lost his job would go on benifits or to another job, with low wages, zero hour contracts and no job security. At the end of the day the government often have to subsidise low wages, many of the 4 million workers living in poverty etc, at the expense of the taxpayer. So not only do people end up paying taxes to subsidise low -paid workers, but indirectly they are helping the multinationals. It is a win win situation for the wealthy. This is bad enough, but when the fortunate and we'll educated look down on the working class and try to blame us for voting to try to change the very system that keeps them wealthy and makes the poor, poorer, it affects you and makes you want to fight harder to have a better future.
The working class have been decimated, almost become destitute in many southern EU countries. The contemptuous blackmail you hear from the liberals, who have never had it so good, is shocking. They say the EU subsidies will stop, that is always their threat, the as in Scotland, but in the case of southern EU, the subsidies aren't seen by the poor or low-paid. Those subsidies keep the middle class in work, not the low-paid.

The others on your list, my opinion would be those working directives have done nothing for the million of low-paid workers, millions who have to emigrate and leave their families behind to find work. I see desolation in many Southern EU countries and people working in poverty and who had no hope in the UK.

You could have made a much shorter post:

Bad things happened after we joined the EU, therefore its the EU's fault, and if we leave the EU the bad things will go away.

Or, for the more educated among us:

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc

 

[leedswolf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-englan...=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=twitter

 

[So Long Architect]

Do the right thing SLA and move your family to Woking, so that you can better integrate with these people.

What, Woking where I've worked for 10 years? Woking with the really big South Asian community and site of England's first mosque? That Woking? Nah, it wouldn't be for me. I don't think I could ever understand the issues of multicultural living well enough.

Funnily enough, Woking also has a really big Italian community who mostly came here in the '60s and '70s to work on the mushroom farms and the Britax factory. They now run loads of barbers, ice cream firms and other businesses. Tend to keep themselves to themselves, have religious services in their own language, speak loudly in Italian and wave their hands around in a suspiciously demonstrative manner... But no-one seems to mind them being here or claim that they've "swamped" us.

Compare and contrast that with some of the rhetoric directed at the South Asian (mostly Pakistani) population. What could be the difference, I wonder?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Good points, but I think our different perspectives are a generation thing.
If you are a worker and the cost of living has gone up, but your wages haven't and you have a family to feed, you have no choice about the 48 hours. You need to work them to survive.
Companies took away our better working conditions, because with free movement, they had many people who would do the same job, not ask for overtime, be more flexible and basically do What ever was asked. Of course you have to put this in the context that their salaries often quadrupled over night, as the person who had helped build the company up and wanted workers protection and a fair wage was surplus to requirements.
The person that lost his job would go on benifits or to another job, with low wages, zero hour contracts and no job security. At the end of the day the government often have to subsidise low wages, many of the 4 million workers living in poverty etc, at the expense of the taxpayer. So not only do people end up paying taxes to subsidise low -paid workers, but indirectly they are helping the multinationals. It is a win win situation for the wealthy. This is bad enough, but when the fortunate and we'll educated look down on the working class and try to blame us for voting to try to change the very system that keeps them wealthy and makes the poor, poorer, it affects you and makes you want to fight harder to have a better future.
The working class have been decimated, almost become destitute in many southern EU countries. The contemptuous blackmail you hear from the liberals, who have never had it so good, is shocking. They say the EU subsidies will stop, that is always their threat, the as in Scotland, but in the case of southern EU, the subsidies aren't seen by the poor or low-paid. Those subsidies keep the middle class in work, not the low-paid.

The others on your list, my opinion would be those working directives have done nothing for the million of low-paid workers, millions who have to emigrate and leave their families behind to find work. I see desolation in many Southern EU countries and people working in poverty and who had no hope in the UK.

You're not really complaining about workers conditions at all are you? You're just aggrieved that inflated rates for what you consider to be irregular hours have largely come to and end. You blame the EU for that, as with Trips earlier I'm not sure that they did anything to bring that practice to an end or whether it's just a commercial decision by companies reacting to the changing landscape, more people work more varied hours these days so they'd probably be costing themselves an arm and a leg paying extra cash for evening and weekend hours that are now the norm for many businesses. Have you got any proof that EU forced companies to end this practice?

When I used to work at IKEA there were still some staff who got double time for Sundays, everyone got double time on bank holidays, but they were few and far between as they'd 'bought' that policy out of people's contracts a few years before I started. For some people the payout was negligible, it was based on previous Sunday's worked over a set period, so depending on their usual working patterns they could make the same money back by doing 2-3 Sundays further down the line, others who worked weekends more regularly were offered a bigger payout and took the lump sum. For a company that operates the same practice at pretty much every allowable hour of the day it seems bizarre to me that anyone would expect to earn a better wage for working one part of the week over the other, as a student at the time I could only do evenings and weekends so why should I have got a better wage than someone who was doing Monday-Friday daytime shifts? It's the same work so it gets the same wage, seems fair to me.

 

[ProgWolf]

Please don't go you tick the 'white racist' diversity box for the forum.

I wondered how long it would be before the smell of the arrogant little turd would invade our nostrils.

I think you and a few on here should sit together in the QT audience. You know the sort of thing, the part where some white, pompous, middle class twat eductates us all by announcing how Immigration enriches our society, to get a cheap round of applause and all the whiteys have to clap regardless, through fear of being seen as a racist if they don't clap. Whilst many non-white people watching at home are shouting "Fu*k Off" at the TV screen, sick to death of listening to those condescending white twats who don't live in the real world.

When people like you call someone a racist, regardless of how it is repudiated, people like you always have the usual choice of cliched replies waiting. Perhaps the reason why I have Black and Asian friends is because I have always lived in a place where there are Black and Asian people ?

Have you and Rentamob on here ever actually socialised with a non-white person ?

I don't like Freedom of Movement. I think too many people from Eastern Europe have been allowed into England in too short a space of time and I think that the majority of Muslims in the UK, have, for whatever reason, still isolated themselves as an ethnic group. Maybe it will take another generation to break down the 'barriers' ? That's all I have said about Immigration. Hardly Rivers of Blood was it ?

If, by your Rentamob definition, that makes me a racist, then I can live with that because I have no respect for your opinion.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I wondered how long it would be before the smell of the arrogant little turd would invade our nostrils.

I think you and a few on here should sit together in the QT audience. You know the sort of thing, the part where some white, pompous, middle class twat eductates us all by announcing how Immigration enriches our society, to get a cheap round of applause and all the whiteys have to clap regardless, through fear of being seen as a racist if they don't clap. Whilst many non-white people watching at home are shouting "Fu*k Off" at the TV screen, sick to death of listening to those condescending white twats who don't live in the real world.

When people like you call someone a racist, regardless of how it is repudiated, people like you always have the usual choice of cliched replies waiting. Perhaps the reason why I have Black and Asian friends is because I have always lived in a place where there are Black and Asian people ?

Have you and Rentamob on here ever actually socialised with a non-white person ?

I don't like Freedom of Movement. I think too many people from Eastern Europe have been allowed into England in too short a space of time and I think that the majority of Muslims in the UK, have, for whatever reason, still isolated themselves as an ethnic group. Maybe it will take another generation to break down the 'barriers' ? That's all I have said about Immigration. Hardly Rivers of Blood was it ?

If, by your Rentamob definition, that makes me a racist, then I can live with that because I have no respect for your opinion.

Have you got any evidence for this Islamic Isolation you keep going on about?

I mean this is only anecdotal stuff but I can think of 7 Muslims I'd consider friends, 6 of them are in relationships to some extent with a 'whitey', the only who isn't is in no relationship at all. Counter that with the relationship status of my Sikh friends, only 4 of whom I really know their relationship status but all 4 are married to other Sikhs, and one of those has gone so far out of his way to 'avoid integrating' as finding himself a Sri Lankan wife!

 

[ProgWolf]

I live in an area of mixed private and social housing. I have lived in this area since 1979. I have friends who are African, Asian and European. Does this make me a racialist?

<edit> I drink in the Western too if that helps.

Leedswolf, as with most discussions on immigration, there always seems to be an element of hysteria or mock outrage or a deliberate lack of understanding to points being made about concerns on immigration.

As for your comments above, I will you what it doesn't make you. It doesn't make you a white middle class twat, who preaches to everyone from their white middle class ivory towers in Whiteville, that the rest of us should just accept the chaos of unlimited immigration from the EU, regardless of what effect we think it's having on working class estates and towns. Have you not seen the polls conducted that refer to the concerns that the majority of people have about Freedom of Movement ? That's all I have been saying. Perhaps you can calmly tell me why it's racist to put forward those concerns ? There are millions of us.

 

[ProgWolf]

I think it's all the other races who are being racist by avoiding being my friend. Keeping themselves to themselves, the bastards - why won't they integrate more and at the same time be much much less in number?

Just two of the many, many examples I could give you.
In your opinion, why did over 70% of the people in Lincolnshire vote to Leave the EU ? (Boston was over 75%)
Why did 63% of the people in Wolverhampton vote to Leave the EU ?

 

[Trips]

I wondered how long it would be before the smell of the arrogant little turd would invade our nostrils.

I think you and a few on here should sit together in the QT audience. You know the sort of thing, the part where some white, pompous, middle class twat eductates us all by announcing how Immigration enriches our society, to get a cheap round of applause and all the whiteys have to clap regardless, through fear of being seen as a racist if they don't clap. Whilst many non-white people watching at home are shouting "Fu*k Off" at the TV screen, sick to death of listening to those condescending white twats who don't live in the real world.

When people like you call someone a racist, regardless of how it is repudiated, people like you always have the usual choice of cliched replies waiting. Perhaps the reason why I have Black and Asian friends is because I have always lived in a place where there are Black and Asian people ?

Have you and Rentamob on here ever actually socialised with a non-white person ?

I don't like Freedom of Movement. I think too many people from Eastern Europe have been allowed into England in too short a space of time and I think that the majority of Muslims in the UK, have, for whatever reason, still isolated themselves as an ethnic group. Maybe it will take another generation to break down the 'barriers' ? That's all I have said about Immigration. Hardly Rivers of Blood was it ?

If, by your Rentamob definition, that makes me a racist, then I can live with that because I have no respect for your opinion.

How is stopping Freedom of Movement within EU going to change how many Muslim immigrants we have?

What are the Eastern Europeans doing that means you want to cut off freedom of movement? You keep saying you have concerns, and there are too many, but what are they doing that causes your concern?

 

[So Long Architect]

Hang on. Is being white the issue now? I'm getting really confused.

 

[ProgWolf]

How is stopping Freedom of Movement within EU going to change how many Muslim immigrants we have?

What are the Eastern Europeans doing that means you want to cut off freedom of movement? You keep saying you have concerns, and there are too many, but what are they doing that causes your concern?

Trips, we are now at the stage on here where I can give answers to your question, only to be met with ridicule from others, who either walk around all day with their eyes closed, and/or refuse to acknowledge people are concerned about unlimited immigration. So first, let me ask you a question.

What is it that you don't understand about the fact that a massive percentage of people in England are concerned about current levels of immigration ? Are you even aware that such large numbers of people are concerned or do you want me to post evidential links first from non-biased media ?

 

[So Long Architect]

Just two of the many, many examples I could give you.
In your opinion, why did over 70% of the people in Lincolnshire vote to Leave the EU ? (Boston was over 75%)
Why did 63% of the people in Wolverhampton vote to Leave the EU ?

I think it was largely driven by a dislike of immigration.

I disagree with their point of view. Is that OK? I disagree with a lot of things a lot of people say and do, as do you clearly. They are free to voice their opinion and vote in the way they like, as am I. Free country, innit.

 

[visage]

Lots of people dislike immigration.

I dislike mushrooms - that doesnt mean that no-one else is allowed to eat them.

We should be basing government policy on facts an evidence, not on whether someone gets the creeps when they hear a foreign language on the bus.

 

[ProgWolf]

Hang on. Is being white the issue now? I'm getting really confused.

Perhaps you would like to have a go at answering the question as to why over 70% of people in Lincolnshire voted to Leave the EU (75% in Boston) and 63% of people in Wolverhampton voted to Leave the EU. Serious question, do you just dismiss them all as racists ?

 

[Trips]

Trips, we are now at the stage on here where I can give answers to your question, only to be met with ridicule from others, who either walk around all day with their eyes closed, and/or refuse to acknowledge people are concerned about unlimited immigration. So first, let me ask you a question.

What is it that you don't understand about the fact that a massive percentage of people in England are concerned about current levels of immigration ? Are you even aware that such large numbers of people are concerned or do you want me to post evidential links first from non-biased media ?

Firstly, we don't have unlimited immigration. We have freedom of movement within the EU, but we have the ability to control immigration from outside the EU.

I understand completely that "a massive percentage of people" have concerns about immigration. I'm not an idiot. What I don't understand is what your concerns are.

So I've answered your question, are you going to have the courtesy to answer mine yet? What are your concerns around immigration? What are immigrants doing that means we should cut it off?

 

[visage]

Perhaps you would like to have a go at answering the question as to why over 70% of people in Lincolnshire voted to Leave the EU (75% in Boston) and 63% of people in Wolverhampton voted to Leave the EU. Serious question, do you just dismiss them all as racists ?

Is SLA a spokesman for the people of Wolverhampton and Lincolnshire now?

This is all becoming a bit surreal.