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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

Imagine if Remain had won and D-Cam had said "we're joining the Euro and signing up to Schengen as soon as possible. The people have spoken and they want us integrated fully with Europe, the result is clear, EU means EU". Uproar. He'd be turfed out of office because that isn't what anyone voted for.

So why are the Fantastic Four getting away with this version of Brexit, when no-one other than a handful of deranged lunatics wanted what we're pursuing now?
 
Deutsch Wolf said:
Imagine if Remain had won and D-Cam had said "we're joining the Euro and signing up to Schengen as soon as possible. The people have spoken and they want us integrated fully with Europe, the result is clear, EU means EU". Uproar. He'd be turfed out of office because that isn't what anyone voted for.

So why are the Fantastic Four getting away with this version of Brexit, when no-one other than a handful of deranged lunatics wanted what we're pursuing now?
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Oh dear. We had already not joined schenghen and the euro. Those. Were never on the agenda for change. Migration issues were already targeted by the government for reduction. If remain had won net migration would still have been a target for reduction so your example borders on the ridiculous. The only way a number of concerns was ever getting properly addressed was a leave vote. It has made those in power have to think.
 
Leaving the single market was never on the agenda.

Don't "oh dear" me.
 
To be honest, sometimes it feels like it's not the Remainers who are having difficulty accepting that Leave won.
 
Visage said:
Well doesn't that just strengthen my point? If what you get isn't what you voted for why should you be expected to support it?
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No. I don't think that many people in the UK were really too concerned with the way the EEC was functioning for the first 20 years or so. Perhaps it's because their corruption was more difficult to detect back then and they were a lot less accountable ?

Then in 2004 Tony Blair smashed the doors open to force unlimited Immigration on us whether we wanted it or not, on a scale we had never seen before, to 'rub our noses in diversity' ? I think I'm right in saying that no other EU country signed up to what he forced on us ?

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

So it's a bit different from your example. We did get what we voted for in 1975, then it morphed into something completely awful so the majority of us wanted to come out of it. Now we have voted for something that you don't like. Well we had 20 years of something we didn't like and eventually we had the chance to change it. If the EU hasn't disintegrated, which many seem to be predicting, I'm sure we will have another Referendum in a few years time. If coming out is the disaster that many are predicting and we vote to go back in, I'm sure the EU wouldn't say no to our billions of pounds would they ?
 
New EU applicants are obliged to agree in principle to join the Euro, so unless they change the rules just for us then we wouldn't be going back in. People are more opposed to losing the pound* than they are Latvians doing jobs that British people can't or won't do.




*Apparently they don't mind it absolutely tanking as a result of their vote, but hey.
 
Please correct me if wrong, but isn't 'freedom of movement' an underpinning element of the Treaty of Rome?
 
Visage said:
You mean like how for the last 40 years eurosceptic MPs and UKIP MEPs have worked really hard to make the most of our membership?
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Yes but whatever good economic news has followed the Referendum and if things do get much better over the next couple of years and beyond, when we finally Leave, how many Remain voters will still say, "It's only a matter of time, disaster is just around the corner". If we don't vote for the winning side, we never credit the other side, no matter how good things get. How many MP's praise the other parties for their policies ? The only time you really hear of an MP being praised on all sides is when they are dead.

For every 'Farage' complaining about the EU up until June last year, you will have plenty of MP's and Journalists telling us how terrible it is that we are Leaving the EU and they will probably be saying that for years, even if things get better.
 
Well I won't be an EU citizen in just over two years' time whereas I have been one for the entire almost 36 years of my life to date, so until that is restored then I will say it's terrible from that standpoint at least.
 
The decision in to not put anyour transitional arrangements in for new EU countries was economic - not to "rub our noses in diversity" That sort of rhetoric is why so many view "some" leavers with contempt.
 
Trips said:
The people that will be leading the negotiations will be May, Davis, Fox and Boris. We won't be having every MP chip-in with negotiations, and they have said they won't be giving a running commentary, so I'm not sure what else you would like them to do.

As for your final sentence, is that a hidden way of saying "Leave won so be quiet and get over it?"
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Trips, if Remain had won, and by the same margin, hands up, I would have been really depressed. I would have hoped for another Referendum at some point, realistically knowing that no future Government would give us the opportunity of ever having another vote. I would have hated it but I would also have to get over it. Just like we do when anything that we support loses. I grant you this is very different as it looks like a 'no turning back' result, but sh*t happens in all of our lives and when we don't get what we want, we move on and look after ourselves and our families and put them first.

I voted for Blair in 1997, but if I had known what he was going to do with Iraq, Afghanistan, Immigration, I would never have voted for him. I feel sick to the stomach that I did, but what did I do ? I moaned to friends and family and forums, but I just 'got on with it.

Hope that doesn't sound patronising. It's just that, from experience, what else can you do ?
 
ProgWolf said:
Yes but whatever good economic news has followed the Referendum and if things do get much better over the next couple of years and beyond, when we finally Leave, how many Remain voters will still say, "It's only a matter of time, disaster is just around the corner". If we don't vote for the winning side, we never credit the other side, no matter how good things get. How many MP's praise the other parties for their policies ? The only time you really hear of an MP being praised on all sides is when they are dead.

For every 'Farage' complaining about the EU up until June last year, you will have plenty of MP's and Journalists telling us how terrible it is that we are Leaving the EU and they will probably be saying that for years, even if things get better.
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I genuinely hope that you and all the leave voters are correct, and that things are so much better when we leave. If it is, I will gladly come on here in 3,4,5 years and say what a great decision it was.

However, I currently see zero benefits of leaving the EU, and have heard nothing from pro-Brexit MP's or leave voters on how things will be better once we have left. They had no plan on what life would look like after we left, and have no plan on what we will be doing when we trigger Article 50. "Control of our borders" and "Taking back sovereignty" are generic soundbites that have no substance to them. Vote Leave said they had no intention of leaving the single market before the vote, but now are all about leaving the single market.

Maybe if we were given some concrete plans and ideas on what Brexit will look like, maybe there wouldn't be so much negativity and saying how terrible it is.
 
ProgWolf said:
I thought Cameron said that if we voted to Leave, we would have to leave the single market ?
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"Scaremongering" when he said it apparently. "It'll never happen, Project Fear", they said. Boris and Farage, the two most prominent Leave campaigners, explicitly saying that we wouldn't leave the single market.

Lo and behold, it's what has happened.

Leave's campaign was definitely not inclusive of leaving the single market, people didn't vote to Leave because they believe the opposite of what David Cameron said or they wanted to call his bluff. Very, very, very few people will vote in that logically tortuous way. They voted because of what the Leave campaign were saying and their pledges don't match up to reality.

Edit: Here's Boris four days after the vote. EU citizens in the UK will have their rights guaranteed (not happened yet) and we'll still have access to the single market (a definitive statement, totally wrong):

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...uences-project-fear-latest-news-a7105311.html
 
The Saturday Boy said:
The decision in to not put anyour transitional arrangements in for new EU countries was economic - not to "rub our noses in diversity" That sort of rhetoric is why so many view "some" leavers with contempt.
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So remind me where that comment came from then ?
 
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