REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Penk Wolf]

Do you think there should be a binding second vote once negotiations are complete and we know exactly what we're getting?

Yes, that should definitely be the case, however I'm not sure it would work once article 50 had been actioned.

 

[visage]

As we are Leaving the EU, it would nice to hear from people who voted to Remain, particularly our MP's, on how they will now help to get the best possible deal for the UK. I think there are many remain voters that struggle with this, as they are being asked to facilitate or help to bring about something that they don't want. Instead many of them prefer to telling Leave voters that they have made a big mistake. Even if that's true, that horse has bolted now. If they have nothing constructive to offer, then what else CAN they offer ?

You mean like how for the last 40 years eurosceptic MPs and UKIP MEPs have worked really hard to make the most of our membership?

 

[ProgWolf]

The onus is on the Leave camp to give us a plan we can discuss.

So don't pass the buck.

With respect, some would see that as a cop-out ?

 

[ProgWolf]

You mean like how for the last 40 years eurosceptic MPs and UKIP MEPs have worked really hard to make the most of our membership?

We had what we voted for in 1975. No-one voted for what it has become.

 

[visage]

We had what we voted for in 1975. No-one voted for what it has become.

Well doesn't that just strengthen my point? If what you get isn't what you voted for why should you be expected to support it?

 

[YoungWolf]

With respect, some would see that as a cop-out ?

Isn't it a cop out for people to inanely repeat, 'Brexit means Brexit' when asked about what the plan is?

People campaigning for remain would have been focusing and preparing on the future of Britain IN Europe, whereas those who want us to leave would have been preparing for a future out, as that is what they want. To not actually have any plan or idea of what to do next is/was ludicrous and has led to the mess that we have been in since June.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

With respect, some would see that as a cop-out ?

No. Why the hell should I want to actively work towards something I voted against? Leave won, as they love to tell me, so they can clear the shit storm up.

 

[Trips]

As we are Leaving the EU, it would nice to hear from people who voted to Remain, particularly our MP's, on how they will now help to get the best possible deal for the UK. I think there are many remain voters that struggle with this, as they are being asked to facilitate or help to bring about something that they don't want. Instead many of them prefer to telling Leave voters that they have made a big mistake. Even if that's true, that horse has bolted now. If they have nothing constructive to offer, then what else CAN they offer ?

The people that will be leading the negotiations will be May, Davis, Fox and Boris. We won't be having every MP chip-in with negotiations, and they have said they won't be giving a running commentary, so I'm not sure what else you would like them to do.

As for your final sentence, is that a hidden way of saying "Leave won so be quiet and get over it?"

 

[Penk Wolf]

The people that will be leading the negotiations will be May, Davis, Fox and Boris. We won't be having every MP chip-in with negotiations, and they have said they won't be giving a running commentary, so I'm not sure what else you would like them to do.

As for your final sentence, is that a hidden way of saying "Leave won so be quiet and get over it?"

Surely, they're just mouth pieces (Not great mouth pieces granted) someone far clever than you, I or the four mentioned will be putting together the document together and will be being paid a lot of money to do so?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Surely, they're just mouth pieces (Not great mouth pieces granted) someone far clever than you, I or the four mentioned will be putting together the document together and will be being paid a lot of money to do so?

Such as who? The civil service has been decimated since 2010.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Such as who? The civil service has been decimated since 2010.

You're really asking me to name who the people that will be employed to put the document together are?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I'm saying we don't have the people and it's folly to think that we do.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I'm saying we don't have the people and it's folly to think that we do.

There are plenty of people in the UK who could be drafted in to advise and will be.

 

[Trips]

Surely, they're just mouth pieces (Not great mouth pieces granted) someone far clever than you, I or the four mentioned will be putting together the document together and will be being paid a lot of money to do so?

Oh absolutely, I have no doubt that the "illustrious four" I've mentioned will not be putting together the documents and writing the deals.

My point to Prog was that he asked what MP's that wanted remain are now going to do to get the best deal - probably not a lot.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

There are plenty of people in the UK who could be drafted in to advise and will be.

Depends really doesn't it. If the Government decide that the remit for drafting such proposals will be to ask for the moon on a stick and to couch it in the most belligerent, obnoxious terms possible (as has been their approach to date) then who really wants to work on such a project where you can't win?

The Government sets the agenda and what they want isn't feasible at all. And Theresa May is not the kind of person who listens to advice such as "these plans are horrific and you need to rip them up and start again". She does what she wants, Tudor wannabe that she is.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

It's a balance isn't it? Armageddon hasn't happened and neither has anything good so neither side can say the vote was wrong absolutely until we actually exit in 2 years.

All this crowing from Leavers is wearing thin and pissing people off. The ignorant should shut the $#@! up if they can't give us a plan.

Thank you for your usual candour! So hypothetically if remain had won what concessions do you think would have been made to address the concerns on migration and border control or freedom of movement? I don't consider myself to be crowing. Its opened a can of worms, but we are where we are. Johnny the floor is yours.

 

[visage]

The problem is that you've got contradictory things - pretty much all free trade deals also include an element of free movement of people.

So if the message from the government is that we'll replace EU trade with deals with India, Australia, Canada etc then that will necessitate some level of free migration to/from those countries.

So the argument may well come down to a stark choice between economic prosperity or stopping migration. And no amount of bluster will change that.

 

[Trips]

Thank you for your usual candour! So hypothetically if remain had won what concessions do you think would have been made to address the concerns on migration and border control or freedom of movement? I don't consider myself to be crowing. Its opened a can of worms, but we are where we are. Johnny the floor is yours.

For me, if remain had won I don't think there would have been any concessions made on freedom of movement. The EU are quite clear on this, nothing would have changed.

In regards to overall migration and border control, we have had control of this for years for countries outside the EU, and don't really enforce it. If you want to bring down net migration (Cameron's target was 100k and I think May is sticking to that) then surely that is the area to focus on, whether in or out of the EU. In my time following politics closely, neither Tory nor Labour governments have done much about it, and I can't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Thank you for your usual candour! So hypothetically if remain had won what concessions do you think would have been made to address the concerns on migration and border control or freedom of movement? I don't consider myself to be crowing. Its opened a can of worms, but we are where we are. Johnny the floor is yours.

There would have been no concessions other than those Cameron brought to the table. As has been stated, leaving is likely to change migration inwards rather than reduce it. Instead of free movement from the EU we will sign up to much freer arrangements with countries we do trade deals with for two reasons.

They will want it and we will need the trade deal.

Our economy needs an immigrant workforce and, as we recover from our economic challenges of the last few years we are likely to need more.

I would support a system whereby our economic needs determine decisions but the reality is that isn't on the table and isn't going to be on the table - from the EU or any other potential trading partners.

Taking back control of our borders is a fallacy.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

The problem is that you've got contradictory things - pretty much all free trade deals also include an element of free movement of people.

So if the message from the government is that we'll replace EU trade with deals with India, Australia, Canada etc then that will necessitate some level of free migration to/from those countries.

So the argument may well come down to a stark choice between economic prosperity or stopping migration. And no amount of bluster will change that.

I repeat the question as the view here is clearly that lots of those who voted leave did so to get migration issues addressed. Given there has been much gnashing of teeth from 16 million remain voters that they have not been listened too I am interested to hear what would or could have happened the other way.