REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deutsch Wolf]

Asda and Tesco were just examples. Lidl and Aldi would be the same.

Shareholders and bankers would still expect these companies to either make similar or increase profits and they will only be able to do that by increasing prices or making redundancies so 1 person is doing the job of 2.

If people aren't happy with what they earn they should be looking elsewhere.

Some people don't have that option.

What you're saying is that there is no possible answer to rampant capitalism, I reject that.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Some people don't have that option.

What you're saying is that there is no possible answer to rampant capitalism, I reject that.

Why don't they?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Why don't unskilled or low skilled workers have the option of "looking elsewhere"? In this climate? Where the Government decreed long ago that you're basically not allowed to be unemployed and entitled to proper support? Where zero hours contracts are prevalent? Come on mate, I don't think you need me to answer that.

Why are we as a country incapable of standing up to Amazon, Sports Direct etc having workplaces that border on sweatshop conditions? Why are there record numbers of people in in-work poverty and we can't do anything about it? It isn't an answer to say "well they'll charge us more as customers or just leave, we'll just have to leave them making massive profits while their employees have to choose between having either breakfast or dinner".

 

[Tredman]

Lidl and aldi both pay decent wages already, more than Tesco and asda.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Aldi's graduate scheme is insane in terms of financial reward, has been for well over a decade. If you just like earning money, don't really care where in the country you live (because they can and will ship you anywhere) and don't mind working yourself halfway to death, they will pay you obscenely.

 

[Penk Wolf]

Why don't unskilled or low skilled workers have the option of "looking elsewhere"? In this climate? Where the Government decreed long ago that you're basically not allowed to be unemployed and entitled to proper support? Where zero hours contracts are prevalent? Come on mate, I don't think you need me to answer that.

Why are we as a country incapable of standing up to Amazon, Sports Direct etc having workplaces that border on sweatshop conditions? Why are there record numbers of people in in-work poverty and we can't do anything about it? It isn't an answer to say "well they'll charge us more as customers or just leave, we'll just have to leave them making massive profits while their employees have to choose between having either breakfast or dinner".

But we have a shortage of brick layers, plumbers, electricians, HGV drivers. What's stopping them doing a night course to retrain?

I get your point totally, but the best way to get these companies to pay more is by forcing them to pay more by rejecting their low paid jobs and forcing them to offer more.

 

[Trips]

Lidl and aldi both pay decent wages already, more than Tesco and asda.

Major supermarkets across the board tend to pay above NMW and NLW. Lidl and Aldi do stand out as paying above the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda though

Its your fast-food places, clothing stores and pub chains that stick rigidly to paying bare minimum.

 

[Tredman]

Major supermarkets across the board tend to pay above NMW and NLW. Lidl and Aldi do stand out as paying above the likes of Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda though

Its your fast-food places, clothing stores and pub chains that stick rigidly to paying bare minimum.

Yeah, but it shows that you don't need to pay crap wages to make money, even if you're whole business model is about selling cheap stuff - like lidl and aldi.

 

[Trips]

Yeah, but it shows that you don't need to pay crap wages to make money, even if you're whole business model is about selling cheap stuff - like lidl and aldi.

Absolutely. I totally agree. My point was that supermarkets gets targeted when there are a lot worse companies/industries that should be paying more also, and I include the company I work for in that 100% - I work for a major pub chain and the wages we pay are frankly disgusting. Unfortunately there is no pressure to pay more.

 

[Penk Wolf]

I went to a huge retailer distribution centre the other week and they've just installed £80m automated picking system in their warehouse, which meant they reduced their workforce.

 

[Trips]

I went to a huge retailer distribution centre the other week and they've just installed £80m automated picking system in their warehouse, which meant they reduced their workforce.

It will become more and more 'the norm' and there will be less skilled jobs to go around. Without going over old ground from about 50 pages back in this thread, it makes the argument for Universal Income stronger.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The best thing the Government (of whichever hue) could do in the short term is to specifically target Amazon as they are just the worst.

- Awful, awful working conditions, disgraceful in our society
- The DWP basically forcing the unemployed to work for them, regardless of whether they want to or are properly suitable
- Minimum wage crap, so people who work for them are still fucked financially if they have dependants
- Based in the middle of nowhere invariably, so a chunk of that paltry pay packet is taken up immediately with travel costs
- Either seven day "flexible" (lol) working or a more or less zero hours basis
- Bullying culture
- The company pays fuck all tax in this country on obscene profits, which the Government allows them to do

I actually wish companies like that would fuck off, we don't need them. Scum.

 

[Penk Wolf]

It will become more and more 'the norm' and there will be less skilled jobs to go around. Without going over old ground from about 50 pages back in this thread, it makes the argument for Universal Income stronger.

I guess supermarkets are doing similar with their self scanning stuff? I guess it won't be long until they have automated shelf stacking too.

 

[Trips]

I guess supermarkets are doing similar with their self scanning stuff? I guess it won't be long until they have automated shelf stacking too.

Supermarkets self-scanning, McDonalds you have the touch screen order points, my company have been trialling an online app for a couple of years now where you can order your food from your phone rather than with a person. More and more jobs will become either obsolete, or require less people to do due to technology going forward. Great for the shareholders and company profits, awful for working people and the economy.

 

[Jolemai]

FT political editor recently posted this:

 

[visage]

The problem that May has is that even with the DUP, her majority is wafer thin. Meaning MPs have huge power to effectively use individual powers of veto in every vote.

A few pro remain MPs like Ken Clarke could veto Brexit.

 

[Jolemai]

They won't though. Just like they won't vote against/abstain the Queen's Speech. It would be political suicide for them and they'd likely be bullied non-stop.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I doubt Ken Clarke cares, who is going to "bully" him? Or Anna Soubry. There's two straight away.

Like Vis says it doesn't take many of them to stop any lunatic stuff from passing, it'll happen all the time IMO. The Queen's Speech should get through because otherwise we don't have a functioning Parliament or any realistic chance of one (plus it will be basically content-free, so there's nothing to vote down) but they can forget about anything else.

 

[Johnny75]

Supermarkets self-scanning, McDonalds you have the touch screen order points, my company have been trialling an online app for a couple of years now where you can order your food from your phone rather than with a person. More and more jobs will become either obsolete, or require less people to do due to technology going forward. Great for the shareholders and company profits, awful for working people and the economy.

this is such a short sighted old fashioned trade unionist view - Technology is taking our jobs, we won't take that lads, out on strike we go. It's classic Luddite thinking.

Technology has evolved to enhance and create far more jobs than it has replaced as the newer technologies need people to maintain, service and improve them. AI is nowhere near the levels that people think it is and can be easily controlled to narrow down on tasks.

Your example doesn't work either as the waiting staff will be still be required as will the chefs and it may mean more chefs as more food can be served. The waiting staff can also have a more customer service oriented role rather than having no time to spend with customers, yes there will be some places that abuse that and reduce staff numbers for waiting but then if the service deteriotes then people will vote with their feet and wallets to a place that serves them best.

Penk's picking example shows that huge amounts of money has been invested by one company to solve a problem with efficiency and it will have cost thousands if not tens of thousands to get that company/ project up and running along with all the extra staff that takes. You also have to manufacture the thing, write the program and maintain the equipment - higher level jobs that pay more. I really can't see the problem.

If we could all get to an automated world where we could do what we want for less money (and technology is there to reduce costs eventually) how is that a bad thing?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I doubt Ken Clarke cares, who is going to "bully" him? Or Anna Soubry. There's two straight away.

Like Vis says it doesn't take many of them to stop any lunatic stuff from passing, it'll happen all the time IMO. The Queen's Speech should get through because otherwise we don't have a functioning Parliament or any realistic chance of one (plus it will be basically content-free, so there's nothing to vote down) but they can forget about anything else.

And it won't be votes in parliament - it will be behind the scenes where backbench Tory MPs do their work. Grammar schools and social care reforms are the two first high profile casualties of our new parliament and May (or whoever) won't be able to breathe without fearing a small group of MPs will get in the way.