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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

Premier Quality said:
The government offered to sort out the rights of both sets before triggering the official exit - putting the issue at rest for both U.K. And European citizens in Each other's territories. The eu said no - but it's the uk that's playing football with peoples lives? Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

The desperation on here to blame the government for anything and everything is a tad pathetic. There loads you can criticise them for - the legal challenges, the lack of updating parliament in advance for example - but this isn't one of them. If the eu refuses to guarantee the rights of our citizens why on earth would we do the same for them, and then hope they don't charge us extra when the negotiations begin?
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Yes, the government are playing with people's lives. The governments line on this amendment was for it to be removed, creating uncertainty for over a million people. I don't care who started it, and if the EU said no first. That doesn't make it right for our PM and government to use people as political pawns. If you are ok with this sort of tactic then happy days for you, but it sits extremely uncomfortably with me.
 
A mutual deal requires the agreement if 27 EU member states. The U.K. can make a commitment to EU citizens on its own.

It would just be the right thing to do.
 
The right thing for the guys here. The wrong thing for our people there. Anyone thinking otherwise is hopelessly naieve.
 
Premier Quality said:
The right thing for the guys here. The wrong thing for our people there. Anyone thinking otherwise is hopelessly naieve.
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So if those same people voted to leave you would have sympathy for them? The same people who voted to leave the EU because they don't like it? Do you not think they've brought that on themselves?

And why, if you voted leave (which I don't know), would you think you can get a group of people you openly dislike to do what you want them to do. Do you really think that will work?
 
It might be the right thing to do for the EU workers in the Country, but no politician is going to agree to something that is so important to negotiations before they start the negotiating process.
 
I can't be much plainer, I don't think we should be making the lives of people who have lived and worked here legally for decades uncertain for no reason other than some pathetic political game (which we are losing by a MILE in any case, by the way). The EU can do what they want, we're not part of that club soon. I hope they do the right thing but it's not up to us now, is it.

While we're at it I'm not happy with having the entire path now being completely at the whim of Theresa May, a serially incompetent and dangerously stupid woman who didn't even win a leadership vote. We're there as well now because the other amendment has been rejected. No chance for anyone to stand up to what she does, for two whole years. Viva Control.

Total dereliction of duty from the Commons, basically agreeing to not do their fucking job. And will it have any impact on voting in 2020? Nope. People just put the cross in the same box that they always bloody do.
 
Johnny75 said:
So if those same people voted to leave you would have sympathy for them? The same people who voted to leave the EU because they don't like it? Do you not think they've brought that on themselves?

And why, if you voted leave (which I don't know), would you think you can get a group of people you openly dislike to do what you want them to do. Do you really think that will work?
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Those same people being the eu guys here or the uk guys there?

I'd have sympathy either way - but at the end of the day it's the eu who wouldn't agree to let them all stay where they are, so whinging about the government is just daft.
 
Premier Quality said:
Those same people being the eu guys here or the uk guys there?

I'd have sympathy either way - but at the end of the day it's the eu who wouldn't agree to let them all stay where they are, so whinging about the government is just daft.
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How do you work that out? It's the UK government that has control of this not the EU.

Excluding the human aspect of this if you want to and think about it logically, if the UK government agree to keeping the EU migrants that are here now they take that bargaining position away from the EU. The EU would have to agree right now as there are elections happening all over Europe and if they didn't guarantee people could stay then the far right would have another stick to beat them with in France and Holland. And that doesn't make good reading in Germany either.

And they really don't need that now. If we wait for a few years we could be in a whole different place and that particular argument may not be relevant. Only a buffoon wastes the high ground.
 
Because it was a straightforward offer - let ours stay and we let yours stay. The eu said no negotiating before article 50 is triggered.

there was no need for high grounds, noble gestures, any other emotive language you may choose - the Eu had the option to make all these people feel safe and decided not to. Given they decided that, the likelihood is that if we agreed for the eu guys to stay without any agreement on our people it would have just meant we'd have had to pay more for our people to be allowed to stay.

THEN you'd have had the ability to criticise poor government.
 
I'd say the opposite, they could quite easily sit at negotiating table and say, right you've already agreed to keep our people, but unless you pay us 10% on everything you import but give us a free tax tariff on all we import you can have all your OAPs back.
 
Premier Quality said:
Because it was a straightforward offer - let ours stay and we let yours stay. The eu said no negotiating before article 50 is triggered.

there was no need for high grounds, noble gestures, any other emotive language you may choose - the Eu had the option to make all these people feel safe and decided not to. Given they decided that, the likelihood is that if we agreed for the eu guys to stay without any agreement on our people it would have just meant we'd have had to pay more for our people to be allowed to stay.

THEN you'd have had the ability to criticise poor government.
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High ground is from the Art of War not emotive language. Why are you complaining about the EU not doing something when your own government has the power to lay the first marker in the ground and exert pressure from the off.

Nobody in the EU parliament is going to negotiate that position as they risk the break up of the EU. The UK has nothing to risk as 'returning' EU migrants would be an impossible and very unpopular task and repatriation is the domain of the BNP. It's political suicide.
 
Penk Wolf said:
I'd say the opposite, they could quite easily sit at negotiating table and say, right you've already agreed to keep our people, but unless you pay us 10% on everything you import but give us a free tax tariff on all we import you can have all your OAPs back.
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We're going to lose all the negotiations anyway as we have absolutely terrible people in charge and no-one to underpin them, with a core ideology of Hard Brexit or bust running through it all. I'd say the chances of "no deal and WTO rules" are getting close to 50:50 now.

So we may as well behave like the humane, developed country that we're supposed to be. People are not bargaining chips.

The EU's own rules say no negotiations before A50 is invoked, why are expecting them to rip them up because of something WE did, completely unprovoked? Our mess, we take the first steps.
 
Deutsch Wolf said:
We're going to lose all the negotiations anyway as we have absolutely terrible people in charge and no-one to underpin them, with a core ideology of Hard Brexit or bust running through it all. I'd say the chances of "no deal and WTO rules" are getting close to 50:50 now.

So we may as well behave like the humane, developed country that we're supposed to be. People are not bargaining chips.

The EU's own rules say no negotiations before A50 is invoked, why are expecting them to rip them up because of something WE did, completely unprovoked? Our mess, we take the first steps.
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I can't see it being hard Brexit, that again is just posturing.

Have we heard who the negotiating team will be or is still to be decided? Does it have to be members of parliament or can they create a separate negotiating team?
 
By the way:

The amendments had required the government to bring forward proposals about how they would protect EU citizens within three months of triggering article 50, and said that a parliamentary vote on the final Brexit deal should be on the face of the legislation.

It wasn't about saying that we immediately say at 9am tomorrow that we're letting everyone who's already here stay. It's about getting the Government to commit to putting that at the top of the agenda. And we've chosen to agree to just take them at their word instead? This bunch of chancers and habitual liars? Good one.

As I say, May cannot now be held to account at all, even when the deal (or lack of one) is finalised in 2019. Can't vote her out until the damage is comprehensively done. Does that fill anyone here with any confidence at all?

It's a disaster of a day for our democracy and humanity.
 
Templeton Peck said:
Uncertainty. It creates tension. I've mentioned her before but my mates girlfriend is Spanish - worked here over 20 years, got 2 kids with him. They're having to consider options at the moment on the basis she might have to leave. I agree it's unlikely she'll have to leave but unlike our govt some people deem it prudent to make back up plans in case the worst happens. They shouldn't have to.
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Why didn't she get a British passport? A genuine question.
 
Premier Quality said:
No, you big drama queen (and I mean that nicely, you're a good guy), it's a democratic decision that you disagree with.
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How is Theresa May being allowed to decide whatever deal she likes, and nobody getting a chance to vote on it or veto it democratic?
 
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