REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[visage]

Most people on low incomes don't visit food banks and some people on higher incomes do. Suggests debt and money management play a part not your income.



I'm not saying immigrants take more but I would point to the fact that given the knowledge that people are living longer why encourage hundreds of thousands of people to come and work for low wages and add to the dilemma. If they can't meet the demands placed on them by an aging population why add to the demand when it would have been far more productive getting the unemployed and on benefits into work? As I linked the affect on the economy has been minimal. I would really like to know how successive governments should have planned for the steep rise in the population?

A=B+C 10=5+5
A=B+C+D+E+F 10 = 2+2+2+2+2
A=B+C+D+E+F. 25=5+5+5+5+5

In terms of funding for public services, how do you get that 10 to become 25 ????

You make cuts, borrow or raise taxes. Either way you turn the living standards of the whole population are compromised.

The national debt and the amount of interest we pay on it (£60Bn pa) is factual.

Immigrants dont universally earn low wages though. Your argument is predicated on a falsehood.

 

[Lord Knows]

I know that but in that case why do the majority of people on benefits not rely on food banks?

I would guess that a lot of families go without some very basics which the majority of us take for granted like heated homes. I just dont like to think there are young children out there suffering because their family was unfortunate to fall on hard times.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

While I don't agree with stopping payments for any reason isn't the job club there to help people get jobs? I see that as support and I would expect a free bus pass as part of the support if the job club is not within walking distance.

No - it is not eligible for free travel, same as a signing appointment isn't. Only a job interview is.

And it really isn't help at all. It is a load of bollocks start to finish. A few nonsense tropes and a load of rubbish really. But you have to attend. Completely compulsory.

 

[Papper]

Immigrants dont universally earn low wages though. Your argument is predicated on a falsehood.

I know they don't but the vast majority do low paid, unskilled work in the service sector. If the economy doesn't grow to meet the demand on public services (see national debt) then you have to find the money to maintain the standard of service. They obviously can't and the steeper the rise in the population the higher the fund required.

 

[Papper]

No - it is not eligible for free travel, same as a signing appointment isn't. Only a job interview is.

And it really isn't help at all. It is a load of bollocks start to finish. A few nonsense tropes and a load of rubbish really. But you have to attend. Completely compulsory.

Well if you're not doing anything else its better than sitting at home. It stops you getting into a rut - there is more to life than Jeremy Kyle. If you get to use their facilities for the job search that's good but the travel should be subsidised if required. Anyway this could be a vote winner for Corbyn - I'm all for empowering the unemployed.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Hmmmm

It costs more in bus fare than the benefit you are entitled to receive.

The rest of your comment, especially the Jeremy Kyle nonsense is patronising bullshit that reflects very badly on you. You do realise now that you have to complete job search details at EVERY signing appointment to show that you are averaging at least 35 hours a week searching for jobs. Fail that, no money for you.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Jobcentre Plus employees are by and large in no way equipped to help with job finding, they don't have the skills, knowledge or time. Anyone who has the internet at home can do a far more effective job on their own.

Essentially the Government aim to make life as awkward as possible for claimants so they give up, either taking work they don't want or are unsuitable for, leading to them having serious problems further down the line, or just dropping out of the system altogether and having no support whatsoever. It's abhorrent stuff.

Watch I, Daniel Blake. It's an accurate portrayal.

 

[visage]

I know they don't but the vast majority do low paid, unskilled work in the service sector. If the economy doesn't grow to meet the demand on public services (see national debt) then you have to find the money to maintain the standard of service. They obviously can't and the steeper the rise in the population the higher the fund required.

You can presumably back up these assertions with evidence? (Ideally not sourced from UKIP, Britain First or the EDL...)

 

[Johnny75]

I know they don't but the vast majority do low paid, unskilled work in the service sector. If the economy doesn't grow to meet the demand on public services (see national debt) then you have to find the money to maintain the standard of service. They obviously can't and the steeper the rise in the population the higher the fund required.

You can prove that can you?

 

[thehistorymakers]

If low-skilled immigration is so good for the UK in terms of multiplier effect, then why hasn't it driven up the wages of the low-paid?

 

[visage]

Why are you asking people to demonstrate something that no one has claimed?

 

[Penk Wolf]

If low-skilled immigration is so good for the UK in terms of multiplier effect, then why hasn't it driven up the wages of the low-paid?

Wages are going up though and by large amounts in some areas.

Why exactly do you think low skilled jobs wages should be going up?

You do realise that more wages go up the higher inflation will be and any wage increase will be pretty irrelevant?


God knows what will happen when interest rates start increasing.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Why are you asking people to demonstrate something that no one has claimed?

It is a genuine question.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Wages are going up though and by large amounts in some areas.

Why exactly do you think low skilled jobs wages should be going up?

You do realise that more wages go up the higher inflation will be and any wage increase will be pretty irrelevant?


God knows what will happen when interest rates start increasing.

If low-skilled workers wages aren't going up, how is mass immigration good for the low paid? What benefit is mass immigration for the low paid workers in the UK?

 

[thehistorymakers]

Wages are going up though and by large amounts in some areas.

Why exactly do you think low skilled jobs wages should be going up?

You do realise that more wages go up the higher inflation will be and any wage increase will be pretty irrelevant?


God knows what will happen when interest rates start increasing.

So immigration has been good for wages in some areas ( better paid) but what benefit has mass immigration been for the low paid?

 

[Penk Wolf]

If low-skilled workers wages aren't going up, how is mass immigration good for the low paid? What benefit is mass immigration for the low paid workers in the UK?

Never said it was, but low paid workers should be looking at themselves for why they have a low paid job not immigrants.

If I was a low paid worker, I'd be looking to do a night course to stop me being a low paid worker.

We've been looking to take on a couple of apprentices about 18, which they can make a career out of. We are offering a starting wage of £250 a week, but those that we've spoke to, that we know, would rather earn £350 a week doing a job with no prospects. I guess when they are still earning the same money 10-15 years time, they will looking to blame the system for them earning low wages.

 

[thehistorymakers]

Another one for you.
Britain always had enough agricultural workers before mass immigration. Where did all the British agricultural workers dissappear to in the space of 4 years and why?

 

[Penk Wolf]

Another one for you.
Britain always had enough agricultural workers before mass immigration. Where did all the British agricultural workers dissappear to in the space of 4 years and why?

Other jobs that pay more money?

Although, I've been seeing Eastern Europeans picking fruit at least for the last 10 years.

I remember when I was at school we used to pick strawberries during the summer holiday.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

If low-skilled immigration is so good for the UK in terms of multiplier effect, then why hasn't it driven up the wages of the low-paid?

An increase in the supply of labour, which happens when there is an increase in immigration, increases the potential output of an economy. Additionally, as the majority of immigrants are of working age they also increase demand in the economy. So, the theory goes, immigration is good for the UK (in an economic sense). However, the greater the supply of labour - the less bargaining power the worker has. Additionally, employers generally set wages, not workers and as a country we have progressively worsened the ways in which workers can collectivise themselves to re-balance the power difference between employers and labour. But at least we have weakened those bad unions.

So what we have is a situation where immigration benefits the economy in terms of what it can achieve and increases demand in the economy meaning more is produced to meet the demand but power over wage levels are ever more in favour of employers who, in pursuit of profits, dividends to shareholders and other factors curtail wages in favour of other "priorities" - thus the value of labour is below what it should be. Consequence, a low wage economy.

There are few, if any, reasons, why wages would be driven up so I am not sure why you are making this point. Before the referendum campaign, these were the issues that led me to believe that we shouldn't be in the EU because the supply of labour was preventing us addressing low pay and pay inequality but it became very clear that nobody on the leave campaign was arguing for a Brexit that addressed any of these issues and it is very clear that the current government has no intention of dealing with these issues...so this is what is going to happen.

We will leave the EU. We will still need low skilled labour. We will rely on immigration for that labour. Mobility is the biggest barrier for low skilled workers so in all likelihood the main source of low skilled labour will continue to be from our near neighbours in Europe and because we will need them to continue coming to the UK...we will let them. This government will do nothing to address low wages through legislation so there will be little difference in wages in the foreseeable future.

We will be out of the single market but still broadly have free movement of labour from EU countries because our economy will continue to depend on it but we will have some notional control on the numbers. Those controls are likely to be employed politically rather than with any economic foresight so will be a mostly destructive tool that will cause needless harm to our economy. Wages won't go up. Unemployment won't go down. The economy will falter.

Alternatively, we can rely on our own citizens to plug the gap vacated by the immigrant workforce. Do not think that suddenly all our unemployed will suddenly pick up the mantle unless you are going to force them to do it. The consequences of forcing people into work that they do not want to do is rarely favourable and I am fairly sure that most businesses would not want such labour forced on them. No, the more likely scenario is that it would be those workers who aspired to become skilled who who would end up taking those jobs...therefore losing the opportunity to become skilled workers. None of the reasons why these jobs are low paid now would change, so they would continue to be low paid. We would then transfer the deficit in our labour market to the skilled workforce and we would require immigrants to plug the gap. Now these people have a skill, we can't just pay them the lowers possible because they wouldn't come here. And they are a smaller pool so have more bargaining power so can demand higher wages. So immigrants would be coming to this country on inflated wages which prevents opportunities for our own people to become skilled because they are spending their time doing the work that immigrants used to do so don't have the time to educate and train themselves.

To be honest, I've just chucked all this together in 10 minutes - feel free to pull it to pieces, it may not all be wholly coherent. On the other hand, the referendum was a simple binary choice where you don't have to consider the multitude of consequences because the bus told me all I need to know.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Another one for you.
Britain always had enough agricultural workers before mass immigration. Where did all the British agricultural workers dissappear to in the space of 4 years and why?

They got trained and got better jobs.