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Looking at history with a modern lens

How do you know this ? I know for certain Canada, Australia Fiji and New Zealand have pretty big giveaways on their currency / flags

3 of those are hardly typical of the rest of the commonwealth, but still quite regularly have debates on changing their flags. Fiji seemingly only kept it as the couldn’t afford to change it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/18/fiji-to-keep-union-jack-flag-british

The empire and its remnants are nothing to be proud of, the best we could do is to help countries rebuild after we stripped them of their economic wealth. Instead we demonise the (non-white) people of the commonwealth as scrounging asylum seekers and terrorists.
 
On the colston statue, if it was to celebrate him, why was it erected 120 years after he died? It wasn't erected as a tribute following his passing etc.
Which makes me wonder who made the decision to have the statue, and why.

My initial reaction was one of shock to some of the scenes we are seeing. My second reaction was fear that this is going to be another hugely divisive issue within an already fragmented society within which we live.

The honest answer to the OP, is I don't know. I'm not sure I understand enough to comment. 2 friends and I meet 3-4 times a year for food and a catch up, and the last time we met (november) the majority of the 3-4 hours we spent together was me asking them to help me understand white privilege. I think we merely scraped the surface.

One thing I come back to, is akin to jabba's post. A lot of my outlook on life is around trying not to apportion blame, but resolve the issue. You can learn from the subsequent postmortem. That said, there is definitely merit to reviewing what statues are where, and whether this is the appropriate place to have them.
 
My nieces husband is black and they drink in Lichfield a lot, they have actually had people tell them to their faces that it's f#cking disgusting what they're doing and how it shouldn't be allowed.

This was a follow on to LJ's post
 
We’ve had worse, but people are on the whole polite.
 
I'm sorry I don't know your situation ?
 
My wife is black. Tbf the politeness thing might be partly because I’m a lot bigger than most people.
 
My two pennies, for what they are worth, removing statues makes a great political point but does nothing to break down inequality within society.

Removing racist TV shows, should happen and editing out of racial slurs is appropriate and helps to reduce normalisation of inappropriate linguistics.

In my opinion, more of an impact than either of these two things would be to start teaching what British colonialism did to the world and how it created racial inequalities within the UK and across the globe.
 
Tredman It does help if you're a giant ! I think with the niece it's more that I think the opinion of the twats is that her husband is defiling a white woman, to be fair it's not very often as they have a large friend group in the area but it does happen.
 
Growing up just outside Lichfield and spending by formative drinking years there I can attest to it being or at least was full of entitled wankers. The whole place is one large superiority complex
 
I'm finding the framing of this as - as in the title of this thread, as it happens - very interesting. A lot on the right have spent a lot of time over many years decrying "cultural relativism", but we're not really talking about that here. Who's being "relativist" about morality in the statue debate? Is it those who say slavery is always wrong, in the past, now, and forever, or is those saying we need to judge these figures by the standards of the time, and weigh up the positive against the negative?

It's also very very frustrating that editing old sitcoms has been folded into this debate, because that's not what this was about last week! The statue of Colston came down because for years and years, locals - including local politicians like the mayor - had been stymied by Bristolian organisations and institutions which have a vested interested in the Colston "brand". It was a widely supported, grassroots (if you like), democratic revolt against an unacceptable honouring of a slave trader in the centre of a large city. Activists and academics who have for years been arguing that the UK has a troublesome relationship with its past are finally getting significant time to put their case on the airwaves and in the printed press, and other statues and monuments - which are specifically under discussion here because they are designed to honour historical figures, not educate us about what they did - are under review. People have been talking about what they were taught about the Empire in school, and there's even been the first serious discussions of reparations that I can remember in a long time. The fact that we're now having open, complex debates about the legacies of life-long racists - who nevertheless were also, as in the example of Churchill, passionate advocates for liberal democracy - is a fantastic thing, because through these debates being had, warts and all, we all benefit through learning and education. History is always more complex and nuance than a statue can convey.

But what's happened over this week has been that this debate has been diverted into a different, parallel culvert, where the conservative and liberal culture warriors who make up most of the professional commentariat are more comfortable fighting back - because it's been the "centre ground" for debates about racism in public life in the UK in recent years. The BLM movement has nothing whatsoever to do with staking out the boundaries of acceptable comedy (what possible point is there in debating if blackface and the N word are acceptable?!), nor is it about "censorship" vs "free speech" or anything like that. It's about the ongoing deaths in police custody across the West of people of colour - and specifically and especially black people - as well as the ways in which the public sphere, from politicians to school curricula to debates on LBC, fails to acknowledge, respect, and address that as a reality and not just an unfortunate niche concern. As part of that, it necessarily demands that we ask ourselves what it is that we as a country decide is appropriate to not just memorialise - Auschwitz is an especially poor taste comparison to make here, because that is a memorial to those who died there, and a site of ongoing education about the dangers of fascism and anti-semitism - but also to celebrate in our works of public art.
 
Not intended as whataboutery but the racism from both sides of that time ought to be challenged - the Beveridge Report which laid the groundwork for the welfare state was outrageously racist. The advancement of (explicitly) the white man features prolifically. All too often at the moment we see cognitive gymnasts blurting "ew Tory scum" and airbrushing what they don't want to see and vice versa. It's easy to go after things you're already in disagreement with but if this is true and sincere introspection people will need to be prepared to be uncomfortable.
 
Indeed. Attlee, and then Churchill again as PM for a final time, both made horrendous decisions as they both tried to stop the Empire falling apart as well. There is no glory or winning side to be picked if this is viewed through a party political lens.
 
Don't view it through a political lens then, view it through a human one
 
Well, I said "party" political. I don't think you can separate the personal and the political here.

If you're a black person living in Bristol, for example, politics happened to your ancestors when they were enslaved and shipped across the Atlantic, and then politics continued through every day you had to walk through your city past a statue of the man who did that to them...
 
I'm finding the framing of this as - as in the title of this thread, as it happens - very interesting. A lot on the right have spent a lot of time over many years decrying "cultural relativism", but we're not really talking about that here. Who's being "relativist" about morality in the statue debate? Is it those who say slavery is always wrong, in the past, now, and forever, or is those saying we need to judge these figures by the standards of the time, and weigh up the positive against the negative?

It's also very very frustrating that editing old sitcoms has been folded into this debate, because that's not what this was about last week! The statue of Colston came down because for years and years, locals - including local politicians like the mayor - had been stymied by Bristolian organisations and institutions which have a vested interested in the Colston "brand". It was a widely supported, grassroots (if you like), democratic revolt against an unacceptable honouring of a slave trader in the centre of a large city. Activists and academics who have for years been arguing that the UK has a troublesome relationship with its past are finally getting significant time to put their case on the airwaves and in the printed press, and other statues and monuments - which are specifically under discussion here because they are designed to honour historical figures, not educate us about what they did - are under review. People have been talking about what they were taught about the Empire in school, and there's even been the first serious discussions of reparations that I can remember in a long time. The fact that we're now having open, complex debates about the legacies of life-long racists - who nevertheless were also, as in the example of Churchill, passionate advocates for liberal democracy - is a fantastic thing, because through these debates being had, warts and all, we all benefit through learning and education. History is always more complex and nuance than a statue can convey.

But what's happened over this week has been that this debate has been diverted into a different, parallel culvert, where the conservative and liberal culture warriors who make up most of the professional commentariat are more comfortable fighting back - because it's been the "centre ground" for debates about racism in public life in the UK in recent years. The BLM movement has nothing whatsoever to do with staking out the boundaries of acceptable comedy (what possible point is there in debating if blackface and the N word are acceptable?!), nor is it about "censorship" vs "free speech" or anything like that. It's about the ongoing deaths in police custody across the West of people of colour - and specifically and especially black people - as well as the ways in which the public sphere, from politicians to school curricula to debates on LBC, fails to acknowledge, respect, and address that as a reality and not just an unfortunate niche concern. As part of that, it necessarily demands that we ask ourselves what it is that we as a country decide is appropriate to not just memorialise - Auschwitz is an especially poor taste comparison to make here, because that is a memorial to those who died there, and a site of ongoing education about the dangers of fascism and anti-semitism - but also to celebrate in our works of public art.

You have worded it far better than I ever could have.
 
History is forever manipulated and always will be, the amount of historical events and people who aren’t exactly what you’d think of them.
Pulling down statues of slave traders or those who’ve committed atrocious acts I’ve got no problem with. But I would say place them in museums and give each person a balanced explanation of who they were.
Don’t erase history, accept its there and you can’t change it all you can do is learn from it.
Also blaming and hating people from certain countries because of acts committed by the leaders of their country many generations before their birth plus the majority of people’s ancestors would have had zero influence on any decisions made at that time.
Education is the key no one is born with racism, prejudice or the ability to stereotype. All are learnt from home life, media and your social surroundings.
As a white male living in Britain I’ve never experienced racism so I can’t comprehend how it must feel or how it then makes you feel about the world around you.
As said education from an early age is key.
 
We do have a lot to do in this country, but I do think we are easily one of the best countries when it comes to attitudes and equality.
 
Sums it up quite well
35841d10c5b3d5049502f7585287769e.jpg
 
I'm in the middle of the documentary "The Australian Dream" which is about the racism AFL player Adam Goodes faced and there are certainly parralels with the UK today in how they don't really want to discuss the issue of racism and try to erase the history of Australia and how they treated the indigenous people.
 
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