Leeds 1-1 Wolves: Verdict Thread

[Paul]

I would say 10 games isn’t a big enough sample to evaluate it properly. He’s probably not getting everything from them but it’s also the nature of the squad at the moment. Inconsistent attacking players, a light immobile midfield and a defence that if you ask everyone on the forum most would want to replace them. He does need to try and get us more relaxed on the ball again but unless we’re not picking up points i think we need to give him time until he’s got more of his own players.

Entirely agree but last season I mentioned a few times it seems as if the team are playing with little to no instruction whatsoever (I think we all conveniently forget the eye bleedingly never passing the half way line for 90% of the game) although there is more effort to move the ball forward there still seems no sense of a style,
ps as I am not a football coach, on opposition set pieces why is everyone inside the 18 yd box, why is no one just outside because every time we head it clear it's coming straight back in again ?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Maybe dominate is the wrong word, Leeds have the players and a style of play that has always caused us problems.

Maybe playing 352 with more legs in midfield might have allowed us to complete more.

Until we can find a way of playing 4 at the back to give us an extra player further up the pitch i think we'll continue to struggle in these kinds of games.

Wolves' initial plan was working, it wasn't particularly pretty but it was getting players into positions which worried Leeds. That changed because Wolves abandoned it rather than Leeds nullifying it, they watered it down and the poor performance of the front three meant they couldn't execute it.

 

[sycophantia]

As always seems to happen, players that haven't been in the team start being held up as some sort of easy answer. People have been calling for RAN over Marcal for weeks. Unsurprisingly to me he struggled, not really a surprise given how much he's plated recently. It's not like he's been fantastic in the past, a few good moments going forward but has always been a bit iffy defending ( I'm not writing him off btw, he's young and raw). Hopefully he gets a run in the team and is able to become more consistant.
All this happened a few years ago when we were struggling to score goals, Vinagre was being called upon to replace Jonny and when he got a chance and wasn't perfect people completely turned against him.

 

[slink]

I look at the work Tuchel has done at Chelsea and I can see parallels with the first 3 games. The biggest difference seems to be mentality and the wing backs.

We do not have the quality at wing back at 3-4-3 obviously. But a midfield 2 of Moutinho and Neves isn’t that much different to Chelsea’s pair of Kovacic + Jorghino, in that neither of those two are that mobile either. Our front 3 are similar in style but of obvious lower quality and our back 3 are the same.

I can also see that Lage wanted to play a similar style to Tuchel with the high press and fast movement but for some reason he’s completely abandoned it after 3 games and turned us into a Championship style lump it forward team.

That’s all in 10 games and it’s getting worse not better and the players look increasingly lost game by game.

Tuchel is an elite coach/manager though, Bruno definitely isn’t at the moment and more than likely never will be.

Their quality at wing back is much better than ours and that is a big issue. The biggest difference between the 2 midfield pairs is Kovacic and Jorginho are much calmer on the ball than Neves and Moutinho for me and that was often a problem for Nuno too. When pressed they do struggle a lot.

Not having that our back 3 are the same as Chelsea, every single one of them would walk in our team and they’re not similar either. We don’t have anyone as dominant as Rudiger and he carries the ball out of defence better than any of ours do and Thiago/Azpi are class. Chalobah looks decent and Christensen is underrated imo.

I don’t think he has abandoned it completely. It is a mix of things now and not always pretty to watch. Maybe he saw those first 3 games and realised he had to change to get results and be a bit more pragmatic at times. Personnel affects that too, Hwang while a goal threat often breaks down our own attacks or has in the last 2 games. Newcastle wasn’t our best performance this season but we deserved to win and played some good stuff in that and should have had the game wrapped up before the crazy equaliser. That was only 3 games ago.

 

[AndyWolves]

Can you explain why we beat Leeds last season then?

Two very lucky goals?

Edit. I know you hate xG but the home game was 0.59 xG for wolves Vs 2.48 for Leeds

 

[slink]

Leeds finishing wasn’t great until Gelhardt came on but they had plenty of shots and Raphina on another day would’ve scored but he was off yesterday.

If your frontmen aren’t holding the ball up then why would you continue to play in such a manner? Seems nuts not to change it.

They barely had a chance in the box. Most of their shots were outside the box and not threatening. So now we’re analysing games on what the opposition players could have done. Raphinha didn’t score and never looked like scoring despite being their go to man.

Pretty hard to change all 3 frontmen, even when it wasn’t clipped in and we linked the front lads struggled to get it under control. It’s why RAN looked the biggest threat but just didn’t know what to do once he got near the box but at least he had control of the ball. He did try to change it with Podence but made the wrong sub imo but definitely kept Hwang on for his work rate.

 

[Tony Towner]

As always seems to happen, players that haven't been in the team start being held up as some sort of easy answer. People have been calling for RAN over Marcal for weeks. Unsurprisingly to me he struggled, not really a surprise given how much he's plated recently. It's not like he's been fantastic in the past, a few good moments going forward but has always been a bit iffy defending ( I'm not writing him off btw, he's young and raw). Hopefully he gets a run in the team and is able to become more consistant.
All this happened a few years ago when we were struggling to score goals, Vinagre was being called upon to replace Jonny and when he got a chance and wasn't perfect people completely turned against him.

I wouldn't say he played well, what he did show is why we need someone in that style if we are going to play 343

 

[PuntsWolf]

Tbf to Hwang he got back in and nullified some really promising situations for them. So without him, with the team playing in the same manner, I’m pretty confident Sa would have been a lot busier.

Obviously a solution to this is play in a way that means you aren’t camped with ten behind the ball asking your forward to play as a second LB

 

[Carsy]

Leeds finishing wasn’t great until Gelhardt came on but they had plenty of shots and Raphina on another day would’ve scored but he was off yesterday.

If your frontmen aren’t holding the ball up then why would you continue to play in such a manner? Seems nuts not to change it.

There finishing still wasn’t great when he came on. He blazed 2 over the bar?

Playing the ball into the forwards to hold up clearly wasn’t working. With Leeds playing high line and if we were to start clipping balls over the top to get them turned, Raul unfortunately doesn’t fit that bill as he’s not quick enough. Shame our 2nd choice number 9 isn’t the quickest.

Maybe a front 3 of pod,hwang and Adama would’ve worked better once plan A had ceased to work?

 

[prawnking]

People were happy/accepting that Nuno left because last season was a painful watch and felt that he was holding the players back, all of which I think has a ring of truth to it. I said at the time, I would have given him the start of this season, but could see why the decision was made and if it was felt he wasn't going to get out of that slump then we were wasting a pre season and half a dozen games by keeping him

I'm not sure this is quite accurate. I think only one person was happy/accepting that Nuno left, the rest of us (including me and you) would have given him a rest, a transfer window and a shot at this season.

I'm not sure I would have said he was holding the players back, I do think they'd started tuning him out, which a lot of people forget when they trot out the 'what was the point of sacking him if we're not playing like Chelsea after nine games' line. It's not as simple as the style of play.

Bruno was brought in to play better football and we saw in the first 3 games that was possible without getting the results. We have about the right points total for the squad we have, given the opposition we have played and obviously results is the metric which is way more important than any other, but we aren't playing well. Last week as enjoyable as it was a freak result and the other none defeats have been broadly about being the better of 2 poor teams. Now I'd rather beat Southampton 1-0 than hammer Utd and lose 1-0, but surely there has to be a middle ground? We are playing 5 at the back due to necessity, which I hang completely on the Board and clearly hampers what he is trying to achieve, but even so, 'they are Nuno's players what do you expect', seems inconsistent with 'Nuno is holding these players back'.

I think you're reducing the argument here and also adding a bit that no one has even said. It's a very inflexible squad, Nuno at least had some input into this over 4 years? It's not that we shouldn't expect any development or improvement, but it's unlikely to happen overnight with limited personnel additions. I don't think Nuno was holding the players back in the literal sense that another manager would allow Donk and Marcal to spread their wings and really shine, more that the lack of player investment in the first XI (which I was banging on about before it was fashionable) hampered any development or decent plan B. Some of that responsibly and choice has to be Nuno's.

In reality, Bruno was considered a joke appointment but he's shown so far that he can get just as effective a tune out of this current squad as Nuno did, the challenge of course is to marry that with 'playing well'. Every manager in the world wants to get that balance right.

I posted Ryan Lester's tweet earlier because he was on board with the Nuno decision and excited about the Bruno appointment, but can see we don't seem to have a discernable game plan or pattern of play. Defaulting to 'but Nuno' or citing agendas as some have to dismiss any genuine concern or criticism is cheap and adds nothing to any debate.

As I said yesterday, before the game I'd have been happy with a 1-1 draw, post game I'm not as surely the result has to be analysed within the context of the match?

I do agree that our game plan appears difficult to discern but I think the 'genuine concern' is being overplayed, for various reasons. I'm not sure what unrealistic expectations add to the debate either.

 

[slink]

Tbf to Hwang he got back in and nullified some really promising situations for them. So without him, with the team playing in the same manner, I’m pretty confident Sa would have been a lot busier.

Obviously a solution to this is play in a way that means you aren’t camped with ten behind the ball asking your forward to play as a second LB

He did get back in and like you stop some promising attacks.

Obviously that’s the solution but we didn’t start that way and it’s just not that simple. If it was every team would play well every week. Hwang only dropped deeper in the second half because we were being forced back. The easy thing to say is change it but it’s just not that simple.

 

[prawnking]

Tuchel is an elite coach/manager though, Bruno definitely isn’t at the moment and more than likely never will be.

Your sensible voice in a sea of unrealistic entitlement is bloody welcome

 

[Johnny75]

They barely had a chance in the box. Most of their shots were outside the box and not threatening. So now we’re analysing games on what the opposition players could have done. Raphinha didn’t score and never looked like scoring despite being their go to man.

Pretty hard to change all 3 frontmen, even when it wasn’t clipped in and we linked the front lads struggled to get it under control. It’s why RAN looked the biggest threat but just didn’t know what to do once he got near the box but at least he had control of the ball. He did try to change it with Podence but made the wrong sub imo but definitely kept Hwang on for his work rate.

It was more the style I was thinking of not the players.

As Mark alluded to, we were not doing things that were working and trying things that weren't.

He didn't change it and that's on him. Bielsa changed his thinking and personnel if not the total style and that worked for him yet Bruno's changes aren't. Benefit of the doubt for him right now but he's got to learn fast and be better at managing games.

 

[prawnking]

As always seems to happen, players that haven't been in the team start being held up as some sort of easy answer. People have been calling for RAN over Marcal for weeks. Unsurprisingly to me he struggled, not really a surprise given how much he's plated recently. It's not like he's been fantastic in the past, a few good moments going forward but has always been a bit iffy defending ( I'm not writing him off btw, he's young and raw). Hopefully he gets a run in the team and is able to become more consistant.
All this happened a few years ago when we were struggling to score goals, Vinagre was being called upon to replace Jonny and when he got a chance and wasn't perfect people completely turned against him.

The omission of RAN was literally held up as a sackable offence by one of the forum experts.

 

[Johnny75]

Tuchel is an elite coach/manager though, Bruno definitely isn’t at the moment and more than likely never will be.

Their quality at wing back is much better than ours and that is a big issue. The biggest difference between the 2 midfield pairs is Kovacic and Jorginho are much calmer on the ball than Neves and Moutinho for me and that was often a problem for Nuno too. When pressed they do struggle a lot.

Not having that our back 3 are the same as Chelsea, every single one of them would walk in our team and they’re not similar either. We don’t have anyone as dominant as Rudiger and he carries the ball out of defence better than any of ours do and Thiago/Azpi are class. Chalobah looks decent and Christensen is underrated imo.

I don’t think he has abandoned it completely. It is a mix of things now and not always pretty to watch. Maybe he saw those first 3 games and realised he had to change to get results and be a bit more pragmatic at times. Personnel affects that too, Hwang while a goal threat often breaks down our own attacks or has in the last 2 games. Newcastle wasn’t our best performance this season but we deserved to win and played some good stuff in that and should have had the game wrapped up before the crazy equaliser. That was only 3 games ago.

I haven't got that across well enough. I meant our 3 are similar in style but not as good quality as are our front 3.

Wing backs are the big difference but if you can't play the way you want them change it because at the moment it's no different to last season.

I think Neves is one of the calmest passers of the ball I've ever seen but if he has no options, which he hasn't right now, then his passing is as work as everybody else. It's our lack of movement which is killing us against the press and we had plenty of that movement in the first 3 games.

 

[PuntsWolf]

He did get back in and like you stop some promising attacks.

Obviously that’s the solution but we didn’t start that way and it’s just not that simple. If it was every team would play well every week. Hwang only dropped deeper in the second half because we were being forced back. The easy thing to say is change it but it’s just not that simple.

I know it’s not that easy. Raul won zero and Traore didn’t get us up the field once, which was frustrating given the calibre of player he was up against, and the amount of space that he’d have been able to exploit if he’d got going.

Plus factor in Doncks ability on the ball. I honestly don’t think he could control a midfield in L2, and we just couldn’t get out. If Neves was injured then he was hamstrung to play Donck though like you said.

 

[slink]

It was more the style I was thinking of not the players.

As Mark alluded to, we were not doing things that were working and trying things that weren't.

He didn't change it and that's on him. Bielsa changed his thinking and personnel of not the total style and that worked for him yet Bruno's changes aren't. Benefit of the doubt for him right now but he's got to learn fast and be better at managing games.

Yeah that’s fair but it’s hard when the players aren’t as good. He tried it looked good but didn’t get points, we’ve mixed it up a bit and it’s similar to last season at times which is a tough watch. He needs to get back to more of that but i’ll be patient.

Last week we all think he got the team wrong but he had reasons for not playing Raul etc…whether we agree with that or not. His subs then changed the game and we win 3-2. That seems to be forgotten because the game and we were poor for 75 mins. He did change something and we improved a lot and came back to win.

 

[Johnny75]

Yeah that’s fair but it’s hard when the players aren’t as good. He tried it looked good but didn’t get points, we’ve mixed it up a bit and it’s similar to last season at times which is a tough watch. He needs to get back to more of that but i’ll be patient.

Last week we all think he got the team wrong but he had reasons for not playing Raul etc…whether we agree with that or not. His subs then changed the game and we win 3-2. That seems to be forgotten because the game and we were poor for 75 mins. He did change something and we improved a lot and came back to win.

His sub (Pod) certainly did change the game, just as Villa's subs changed it for the worse so that's fair.

There was a fair slice of luck in that win and we can't rely on deflected 90+ min free kicks for long.

 

[slink]

I know it’s not that easy. Raul won zero and Traore didn’t get us up the field once, which was frustrating given the calibre of player he was up against, and the amount of space that he’d have been able to exploit if he’d got going.

Plus factor in Doncks ability on the ball. I honestly don’t think he could control a midfield in L2, and we just couldn’t get out. If Neves was injured then he was hamstrung to play Donck though like you said.

This is what i’ve been saying though and why I said we actually agree. There’s only so much Bruno can do, he’s got to keep trying to get more out of these players in an attacking sense but it’s tough because either they can’t do it, when it’s hard they revert to drop and be safe or they are really inconsistent.

We dropped far too deep yesterday and you need to be brave and risk players staying forward to beat Leeds to make the most of the space they leave. You could clearly see Bruno was trying to get them up and to control the ball more and i know that’s his job but as we’ve agreed it’s tough with these players sometimes.

 

[prawnking]

Last week we all think he got the team wrong but he had reasons for not playing Raul etc…whether we agree with that or not. His subs then changed the game and we win 3-2. That seems to be forgotten because the game and we were poor for 75 mins. He did change something and we improved a lot and came back to win.

It also hasn't been mentioned that Neves (our best mf) was an enforced absence, all emphasis was on Leeds and their injuries