Keir Starmer at it again..

[Tredman]

That's fine, but why should others have to subsidise that?

I think it's a great idea to help working families back into work, and a great safe guard for vulnerable kids. But in terms of opportunity cost (and the message the advert gives) I'd rather taxes went to more needy causes than going out for a coffee. Especially when Rachel is talking about having to raise taxes.

Proving Maggie right in one post

 

[AndyWolves]

Proving Maggie right in one post

Do you think it's a good use of societal resources? For the reasons given in the post?

I'm trying to see the other side of this argument and genuinely interested.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

What it will also do is enable parents to get to work on time. We used breakfast clubs when my girls were younger (paid for) that's what the messaging should be about. I'd drop them off at 8 and be able to get to work for 9.

 

[leedswolf]

Do you think it's a good use of societal resources? For the reasons given in the post?

I'm trying to see the other side of this argument and genuinely interested.

Do you not think that work/life balance is important too?

 

[AndyWolves]

Do you not think that work/life balance is important too?

Yes, but someone has to do the work for the balance. The examples in the tweet make no reference to work, and that's what I have issue with.

Id love to not work, but I don't see it being someone else's problem that I have to.

 

[lemonjelly]

That's fine, but why should others have to subsidise that?

I think it's a great idea to help working families back into work, and a great safe guard for vulnerable kids. But in terms of opportunity cost (and the message the advert gives) I'd rather taxes went to more needy causes than going out for a coffee. Especially when Rachel is talking about having to raise taxes.

30 minutes per day/week don't enable someone to work or not work. Most peoples commute is longer than 30 minutes I expect.

We seem happy to subsidise phenomenally wealthy companies all the time.
A progresive taxation system should benefit the society as a whole. There will always be a proportion who contribute more, and vice versa.
I'd rather have 30 minutes to enahnce my life, not work longer and harder.

Are you suggesting we remove funding from anyone who doesn't work/contribute? Of course not (I hope!)

 

[The Saturday Boy]

It shows how the rich and powerful (the tiny minority) have shaped the narrative of a sizeable portion of the majority. Taxation isnt a necessary evil, it is necessary. We don't have a truly progressive taxation system and we don't raise enough from taxation to fund things that would make a real difference to people's lives so we squabble over whether the disabled are deserving of their benefits and whether an additional 30 minutes from a breakfast club is a good use of taxpayer's money.

We live in a feudal system that we have called capitalism because it sounds better. The vast majority of wealth is held by a few, the vast majority of that wealth has been generated by workers and consumers with the extremely small amount of wealth that has trickled down.

But spend a little money on providing parents an extra 30 minutes is the problem? Doesn't matter how it is framed, who introduced it or what people use that 30 minutes for...it is a miniscule irrelevance in the great scheme of things.

Most of what is good in society has developed directly or indirectly from socialist ideas, paid for through taxation. Social security, social housing, NHS, education, public utilities...all subsequently victims of the feudal narrative of capitalism. Without the ideas of socialism, we wouldn't have a middle class. The provision of education, universal health care, decent housing, a safety net...all combined to provide opportunities for aspiration that capitalism does not. But 30 minutes for a cup of coffee is a waste?

So yes. Tax the wealthy and the rich and if they try to leave, tax them again. Stop the transfer of funds to offshore accounts and all the other "legal" avoidance schemes. And then maybe we can extend that 30 minutes to an hour.

 

[AndyWolves]

30 minutes per day/week don't enable someone to work or not work. Most peoples commute is longer than 30 minutes I expect.

We seem happy to subsidise phenomenally wealthy companies all the time.
A progresive taxation system should benefit the society as a whole. There will always be a proportion who contribute more, and vice versa.
I'd rather have 30 minutes to enahnce my life, not work longer and harder.

Are you suggesting we remove funding from anyone who doesn't work/contribute? Of course not (I hope!)

No? I don't think I've come close to saying any of that?

Like I've said, this is a really good thing for allowing people to get to work in the morning and can make the difference between someone working or not, and the safe guarding elements are huge.

I simply reject that the rest of society should pay so that someone can put their feet up, get a coffee etc.

I think everyone would like an extra 30 minutes per day

 

[AndyWolves]

And I'm not saying there aren't big issues elsewhere with taxation and the problems the super rich are causing.

But on this issue I think the way the breakfast club has been pitched is really poor, and the optics it presents.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

And I'm not saying there aren't big issues elsewhere with taxation and the problems the super rich are causing.

But on this issue I think the way the breakfast club has been pitched is really poor, and the optics it presents.

Yep, I'm surprised anyone is arguing with that.

I'm supposedly "hard left" and a "Corbynite" and all of those other weird labels, and i found those people's statements incredibly annoying.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

No? I don't think I've come close to saying any of that?

Like I've said, this is a really good thing for allowing people to get to work in the morning and can make the difference between someone working or not, and the safe guarding elements are huge.

I simply reject that the rest of society should pay so that someone can put their feet up, get a coffee etc.

I think everyone would like an extra 30 minutes per day

Where else do you draw the line on what society should pay for?

 

[Del Woppio]

I think things are being read that aren't there tbh

 

[AndyWolves]

Where else do you draw the line on what society should pay for?

I work to the principle that society should look after and help people who can't help themselves, and that, as a society, everyone has a right to a minimum standard of living (whatever that may be).

 

[AndyWolves]

Yep, I'm surprised anyone is arguing with that.

I'm supposedly "hard left" and a "Corbynite" and all of those other weird labels, and i found those people's statements incredibly annoying.

It fuels the "rights" narrative that the "left" are slackers and want everything for free, which this scheme enables people to be less dependent on the state.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I work to the principle that society should look after and help people who can't help themselves, and that, as a society, everyone has a right to a minimum standard of living (whatever that may be).

But what is a minimum standard of living? That is really subjective and goes to the heart of your argument. For me, a minimum standard of living is a house, food, energy, water, education, healthcare, social care, defence/safety, street lights, transport, welfare, ability to live beyond "a basic standard" by way of a guaranteed minimum income...there are probably other examples...

I think the state should provide or enable each of these things from the common good of taxation. I believe most people would pay more.tax if they believed that they would reap the benefits but we have been conditioned to believe that taxation is bad, state spending is bad and that if we let people fend for themselves they will all be fine - despite the fact that this is manifestly and demonstrably untrue.

Austerity kills. The lack of social housing has created profits for private landlords, prices people out of housing and increased homelessness. State Education is increasingly benefiting shareholders. Healthcare is increasingly benefiting private companies. Utilities have made a few rich while the rest have paid the bills.

If the state only looks after those that cant help themselves, everyone else is left to fight for the miniscule scraps that the minority allow us to have.

I am a socialist. I believe that the state should be the means by which the majority benefit from the success of our collective effort and not the minority. If the state only looks after those who cant help themselves, the state has no meaningful contribution other than to mitigate the impact of capitalism. If something needs mitigating to that extent, it shouldn't exist.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

You both seem to be right and I agree with both of you, so i am not sure why you both feel like you disagree with oneanother?

What do you think of that video in isolation TSB?

 

[The Saturday Boy]

You both seem to be right and I agree with both of you, so i am not sure why you both feel like you disagree with oneanother?

What do you think of that video in isolation TSB?

I don’t see the video in isolation so have no opinion on it. Any opinion I have is based on the responses to the video.

 

[AndyWolves]

But what is a minimum standard of living? That is really subjective and goes to the heart of your argument. For me, a minimum standard of living is a house, food, energy, water, education, healthcare, social care, defence/safety, street lights, transport, welfare, ability to live beyond "a basic standard" by way of a guaranteed minimum income...there are probably other examples...

I think the state should provide or enable each of these things from the common good of taxation. I believe most people would pay more.tax if they believed that they would reap the benefits but we have been conditioned to believe that taxation is bad, state spending is bad and that if we let people fend for themselves they will all be fine - despite the fact that this is manifestly and demonstrably untrue.

Austerity kills. The lack of social housing has created profits for private landlords, prices people out of housing and increased homelessness. State Education is increasingly benefiting shareholders. Healthcare is increasingly benefiting private companies. Utilities have made a few rich while the rest have paid the bills.

If the state only looks after those that cant help themselves, everyone else is left to fight for the miniscule scraps that the minority allow us to have.

I am a socialist. I believe that the state should be the means by which the majority benefit from the success of our collective effort and not the minority. If the state only looks after those who cant help themselves, the state has no meaningful contribution other than to mitigate the impact of capitalism. If something needs mitigating to that extent, it shouldn't exist.

No idea what minimum standard is, but below the poverty line is certainly under the minimum, along with all the good things you mentioned.

I certainly think justice, healthcare, food, shelter, education, energy, water, transport etc (the things for public good) should not solely be in private hands.

But im not saying of any those shouldn't be, all I'm saying is that I'm against spending resources on the examples given in that video. I suggest you watch it

 

[PuntsWolf]

I know colleagues utilised the breakfast club and paid for it (same as nursery before school age), so giving it free is basically a benefit to said working people.

I don’t see how offering it to people who don’t use it because they don’t work will suddenly now get a job because they can drop them off 30 mins earlier.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

No idea what minimum standard is, but below the poverty line is certainly under the minimum, along with all the good things you mentioned.

I certainly think justice, healthcare, food, shelter, education, energy, water, transport etc (the things for public good) should not solely be in private hands.

But im not saying of any those shouldn't be, all I'm saying is that I'm against spending resources on the examples given in that video. I suggest you watch it

I have watched it.