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Keir Starmer at it again..

I can get what you mean, genuinely, but how can the project actually do anything for them if it’s unelectable?
Jesus fucking christ.

Look, hate Corbyn all you want, but can people stop with this complete nonsense?

"Electability" means nothing. It's a word invented by people in power to discredit people they don't want to have power. It's purely a political attack, there is no such thing as an inherent "electability".

This isn't just a Corbyn thing either, even if it gets thrown at the left most often. If you let someone in power tell you that someone they dislike is unelectable, then you're letting them maintain that power at the expense of actual democratic politics.
 
Would you say the 2019 Labour election results screamed 'electability'?
 
I can get what you mean, genuinely, but how can the project actually do anything for them if it’s unelectable?
This is a myth, they weren't unelectable in 2017 although pretty much anything after that was.

Elections are about moments in time. When May called a snap election most people thought it a shrewd move and predicted a healthy majority. The Tories held a healthy lead in the polls but then they imploded during the campaign. The narrative that people held their nose to vote for Corbyn might have been true for some but for many others, 2017 was a genuine alternative to the status quo. And there was Brexit, Labour appeared to be the only alternative to Brexit even though they had a confused position.

A sequence of events created a situation where 2017 Labour was electable. Had previous Labour leaders not handed Scotland on a plate to the SNP the outcome would have been different.

Roll on 2019, Labour are a shambles and Johnson has clear and consistent messages, usually consisting of 3 words. He had purged his party of dissenting voices and from a position of leading in the polls and does nothing that could mess that up.

I get that many despise Corbyn et al, the vitriol and personal abuse that goes largely unchecked on this forum towards anyone who shares his politics had made this place worse...but there is a genuine debate to be had about the validity of policies of democratic socialism that is divorced from the "Corbyn/Corbynite" put downs that have become the go to response from some on here anytime the current Labour Party are criticised.

This is a Labour Party that offers very little other than being not the Conservative Party. That might be an election winning strategy but does nothing to get people interested in politics. Whatever you think of the Brexit Referendum and the 2017 election - both genuinely engaged people in discussions about the place they lived in, it was not always a healthy discussion but it was there. Now all we seem to have is the toxicity without the debate.
 
Many were just normal people who got excited about being part of a political project that might actually do something for them rather than more managed decline.

Let's be honest, it was basically a cult of personality, bizarrely around a man that doesn't have much. A blank canvas to project onto.

I agree it mobilised a lot of idealistic, utopian young people, students and middle-class rebels, and political engagement is a good thing, but it also regurgitated a significant amount of the clichés, naivety and errors that Labour and the Left made during the 80s (partially because, behind the youth really lay the dead hand of many of those disenfranchised old souls).

As in the 80s, it all went tits up because the far Left has some bizarre beliefs and contradictions and prejudices that look pretty rank once you get them into the light (they never seem to realise this as they're forever convinced they're the good guys), and eventually render them... unelectable.
 
I can get what you mean, genuinely, but how can the project actually do anything for them if it’s unelectable?
We need a different voice in the conversation IMO. Farage has got everything he wanted without winning a single election. Flaw with that plan I spose is that msm seem keener on promoting right wing voices than left wing ones. Presumably as the right wingers have money and influence behind them.
 
Now that I can understand. There is no doubt whatsoever that panel selection for many political commentary programmes is more than a bit skewed. Not sure what the solution is though. Especially as BBC are clearly terrified of upsetting the current government.
 
This is a myth, they weren't unelectable in 2017 although pretty much anything after that was.

Elections are about moments in time. When May called a snap election most people thought it a shrewd move and predicted a healthy majority. The Tories held a healthy lead in the polls but then they imploded during the campaign. The narrative that people held their nose to vote for Corbyn might have been true for some but for many others, 2017 was a genuine alternative to the status quo. And there was Brexit, Labour appeared to be the only alternative to Brexit even though they had a confused position.

A sequence of events created a situation where 2017 Labour was electable. Had previous Labour leaders not handed Scotland on a plate to the SNP the outcome would have been different.

Roll on 2019, Labour are a shambles and Johnson has clear and consistent messages, usually consisting of 3 words. He had purged his party of dissenting voices and from a position of leading in the polls and does nothing that could mess that up.

I get that many despise Corbyn et al, the vitriol and personal abuse that goes largely unchecked on this forum towards anyone who shares his politics had made this place worse...but there is a genuine debate to be had about the validity of policies of democratic socialism that is divorced from the "Corbyn/Corbynite" put downs that have become the go to response from some on here anytime the current Labour Party are criticised.

This is a Labour Party that offers very little other than being not the Conservative Party. That might be an election winning strategy but does nothing to get people interested in politics. Whatever you think of the Brexit Referendum and the 2017 election - both genuinely engaged people in discussions about the place they lived in, it was not always a healthy discussion but it was there. Now all we seem to have is the toxicity without the debate.

Spare us the hand wringing about the far left, please.

Have you ever seen how many of them conduct themselves on social media (let alone in person), or the toxicity that was present while Corbyn was leader? A fair amount of nasty, juvenile, smug, anti Semitic know it alls that potentially set the cause of the Left back years, so that the only likely avenue out of Tory hell is a play for the centre
 
Let's be honest, it was basically a cult of personality, bizarrely around a man that doesn't have much. A blank canvas to project onto.

The exact opposite of this was the case. It was all about policies and ideas. I'd never heard of the guy until I heard he was standing as the token lefty. It was what he represented that was exciting. He himself just seemed like a nice old bloke who made jam and had an allotment.
 
Now that I can understand. There is no doubt whatsoever that panel selection for many political commentary programmes is more than a bit skewed. Not sure what the solution is though. Especially as BBC are clearly terrified of upsetting the current government.
Righties like Farage are better TV than lefties too. You'll get racist soundbites from Farage which you'd never get from a lefty.
 
Man, we are back here already.

Lets talk about something else that we can all agree on....

Matt Doherty...what are we thinking?, right?
 
Let's be honest, it was basically a cult of personality, bizarrely around a man that doesn't have much. A blank canvas to project onto.

I agree it mobilised a lot of idealistic, utopian young people, students and middle-class rebels, and political engagement is a good thing, but it also regurgitated a significant amount of the clichés, naivety and errors that Labour and the Left made during the 80s (partially because, behind the youth really lay the dead hand of many of those disenfranchised old souls).

As in the 80s, it all went tits up because the far Left has some bizarre beliefs and contradictions and prejudices that look pretty rank once you get them into the light (they never seem to realise this as they're forever convinced they're the good guys), and eventually render them... unelectable.
I know you think this is still excuse-making, but I promise you that this is coming from a place of sincere concern about substance versus bullshit in politics. It's not a tribal position - this impacts the right just as much, even if the specific terminology isn't always the same.

"Electability" means nothing because it isn't actually about elections. It's about predicting elections - or, more accurately, conjuring a self-fulfilling prophecy.

To use your example as an illustration: You cannot point to "mistakes the left made in the 80s" as if those things happened in a vacuum. What "mistakes"? Who defined them as mistakes? You couldn't open a newspaper in the 80s without some new reports on "the Loony Left" and their wacky ideas, but obviously "the left" was never a unified thing. You can see the same tactics being tried out now with the "political wing of Just Stop Oil" nonsense - everybody on the left being rolled together, so that the more extreme activists can be used to cast aspersions on mainstream politicians. In the 80s, "the Loony Left" was said to include stuff like...

- Campaigning against apartheid
- Anti-racism campaigns
- Investment in cultural institutions
- Social housing subsidies
- LGBT rights campaigns
- Union solidarity campaigns
- Soviet Union "exchanges"
- Paedophile rights campaigns
- Crank antisemitism
- Bombing animal testing labs

It's a complete jumble of stuff, all rolled together into one neat label - and it worked extremely well. Don't have to go over how tilted rightwards the media is in the UK. But I think it's important to note that the first deployments of "Loony Left" as an attack were directed at elected Labour politicians in local authorities, and especially the GLC under Ken Livingstone. The Tories hated that that wing of the left wasn't just interested in winning elections, but kept winning - so they abolished the GLC. At the same time, with a straight face, they kept banging on about how the "Loony Left" wasn't interested in winning elections, was just a bunch of grotty hippies wanting to expropriate the nukes to the Soviet Union, move a black man in next door to your gran, etc etc.

Left politicians consistently get hit with this. Have done for decades. Doesn't matter that they keep running in elections - they have no interest in being elected. Doesn't matter that they do, sometimes, win elections too - they're "unelectable". It's not about what they actually say or do, because what's more important is casting them as illegitimate within the confines of the democratic system.

Instead of focusing on elections in isolation, we can see that so much of what that elected Loony Left - and activist groups too for that matter - were trying to do in the 80s was either morally just, actually popular, or simply not that radical. That's not to cast them as saints who we must all bow down and worship, but rather to point out that there was a complete disconnect between what "the left" as a big lump was being portrayed as within the media and by its political opponents, and the massive divergences within that same group in political beliefs, policy ideas, campaigns, etc. (I mean c'mon, if there's one thing the left loves above anything else, it's a schism.)

That's how "electability" as a concept works for those in power who deploy it:

- It maintains a strict border around what is and isn't allowed in politics, keeping debate within bounds that advantage them
- It maintains the idea that even trying to change the terms of political debate outside of Westminster/the establishment media is illegitimate
- It disregards any attempts to effect political change outside of politics as meaningless (which, as noted with the Farage example, is just incredibly ahistorical; elected politicians passing new laws, on left or right, is usually the end of the process of change, not the beginning)

And I do want to emphasise, again, that this isn't about defending Corbyn for his mistakes - or even the parts of the left that I do consider myself aligned with for theirs (including, yes, way too much accommodation of forms of AS) - but rather about how so much of politics today involves people with power clamping down on grassroots movements for change. I honestly think all of this applies just as much to euroscepticism on the right; it was a movement led by a small group of wealthy Tory and Tory-aligned elites, but there was also a real on-the-ground social dissatisfaction which they tapped into. You can point to charismatic leaders like Farage and Johnson and blame them, but they were lightning rods as much as weathervanes.

You might think that sounds OK by you - and this final point is a bit tribal to an extent - but I think you're also doing yourself a disservice in not understanding why people like Corbyn so much, just as much as if you just handwaved away people like Farage or Johnson as "not having much". Disagreeing with liking them is perfectly fine and it would be an incredibly shit world if politicians really could expect and demand mass loyalty and love. But if you don't try to understand what it is that draws people towards a politician, what gives them their power, you're undermining your own ability to oppose them. Corbyn had a decades-long history of pointing at stuff in British politics, going "don't do that, it'll make things worse," and turning out right. Easy to do from the backbenches, of course, but over 30+ years a lot of people had been repeatedly labelled crazy, loony - even unelectable - because they wanted the UK to look more like France or Germany or Sweden than the US, and the system finally gave us someone to act as an outlet for that pent-up pressure. If you disregard it all as cranks yearning to thrown Jews into camps then you're misunderstanding it just as badly as someone thinking Brexit happened because of a bunch of swivel-eyed, racist loons. Those people exist, but there were never hundreds of thousands of them joining the Labour party in 2015.
 
Man, we are back here already.

Lets talk about something else that we can all agree on....

Matt Doherty...what are we thinking?, right?
Can't believe we have to put up with another right-winger, this is all Keith's fault 😤😤😤
 
Where I think electability comes into it is that Labour need to persuade both previous Conservative and indeed now SNP voters to want to vote Labour. And the big political shift is the Conservative Party has lurched miles to the right leaving a lot of centrist leaning votes to be hoovered up. The Johnson purge pissed off a lot of people.

That’s what Starmer seems to be trying to do. I’m not sure Corbyn could get those votes (although he did get mine I suppose!).
 
And a 'lefty' would never be racist?
There is racism on the left in extreme cases, yes. Most lefties are internationalists though and see our divisions as class based rather than race or nationality. Right Wingers are pretty much the opposite.
 
Where I think electability comes into it is that Labour need to persuade both previous Conservative and indeed now SNP voters to want to vote Labour. And the big political shift is the Conservative Party has lurched miles to the right leaving a lot of centrist leaning votes to be hoovered up. The Johnson purge pissed off a lot of people.

That’s what Starmer seems to be trying to do. I’m not sure Corbyn could get those votes (although he did get mine I suppose!).
Nah he never could have. (Well, SNP maybe in a less polarised Scotland, but not Tory. They tend to go Lib Dem.)

But there's two different things here:

Figuring out how to win an election is what every single politician does. Just because we might not agree with or accept the tactics doesn't mean that they don't have a plan, nor that they don't want to be elected at all.

"Electability" is instead a term which is kind of the opposite. Instead of a theory of politics which looks at things as they are and tries to move the pieces on the board to create a new advantage, it instead frames politics as a game with static rules which are predictable, and then disregards anything outside of that playbook as wrong, illegitimate, maybe even dangerous. It pretends to be sensible and pragmatic, but really it's about maintaining the system as it is and preventing too much change, because change means that the people winning under the current system might stop winning.
 
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