Jeremy Corbyn

[Deutsch Wolf]

The CDU in Germany are every bit as rightwing as 80s/90s Tories (the current lot are just a different species on their own) but they don't act like complete bastards 100% of the time.

 

[Johnny75]

Is that not what was said above though, our perception of what is left wing in the UK has been skewed by having very right wing governments such as Thatcher?

It's a tad self-centred to say everyone else is left, whereas we are centre - might the answer be that the policies pursued in the UK over the last 40 years have been various shades of right wing (occasionally extreme) and centrist. Corbyn looks very left wing to us, but compared to to Atlee, Wilson and Foot he really isn't.

Not really. It isn't to do with where we are now, more an absolute of right and left according to the political science bods.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Is that not what was said above though, our perception of what is left wing in the UK has been skewed by having very right wing governments such as Thatcher?

It's a tad self-centred to say everyone else is left, whereas we are centre - might the answer be that the policies pursued in the UK over the last 40 years have been various shades of right wing (occasionally extreme) and centrist. Corbyn looks very left wing to us, but compared to to Atlee, Wilson and Foot he really isn't.

Spot on.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Not really. It isn't to do with where we are now, more an absolute of right and left according to the political science bods.

The nationalisation history of the U.K. is predominately state capitalism - top down public corporations. Nationalisation in itself is not a left wing policy but merely a means to an end to enable left wing policy.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Corbyn is very left wing, make no bones about it, but I would say that Foot was even more so. Atlee and Wilson and am less convinced about the argument. They were left wing compared to say Blair, but I think Corbyn lies to the left of them both.

Foot was so left wing he was utterly unelectable. A shame for the man, who I personally believe was a genuine good honest type. Corbyn is also unelectable. The difference is Foot was against Thatcher at her zenith. Corbyn is against a disunited rabble led by a lame duck.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Centre left is Corbyn. He's seen as far left because to Brits he is! All we've known since 79 is different shades of Thatcherism. Much of Labours current policy would have been viewed as moderate in the decades after WW2. Much of the Party’s current policies are mainstream orthodoxy across the rest of Europe, especially amongst social democrat parties.

 

[Templeton Peck]

And the centre ground changes. It used to be centrist to see markets as being the answer to everything. That has changed now.

 

[Johnny75]

And the centre ground changes. It used to be centrist to see markets as being the answer to everything. That has changed now.

You're confusing popular with policy.

No matter how many times you say it Corbyn is not centre left. I know you'll blame the right wing media, and probably right wing think tanks, but all the evidence points to Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum as left wing. There is nothing wrong with that but to paint it as something it isn't is disingenuous.

 

[Penk Wolf]

And the centre ground changes. It used to be centrist to see markets as being the answer to everything. That has changed now.

Is there an actual definition of what is left and what is right or is it all down to opinion?

 

[Templeton Peck]

You're confusing popular with policy.

No matter how many times you say it Corbyn is not centre left. I know you'll blame the right wing media, and probably right wing think tanks, but all the evidence points to Corbyn, McDonnell and Momentum as left wing. There is nothing wrong with that but to paint it as something it isn't is disingenuous.

Precisely what I'm getting annoyed about!
Corbyn is centre left. He's portrayed as far left to make him sound more extreme than he actually is.
People like Blair, Umunna and Brown are centre right. There's nothing wrong with this but to present them as centre left or centrist is disingenuous.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Is there an actual definition of what is left and what is right or is it all down to opinion?

You might say far left=completely state run economy and far right = no role for the state at all. Friedman believed that only the police should be state funded for example.

 

[Johnny75]

Precisely what I'm getting annoyed about!
Corbyn is centre left. He's portrayed as far left to make him sound more extreme than he actually is.
People like Blair, Umunna and Brown are centre right. There's nothing wrong with this but to present them as centre left or centrist is disingenuous.

And just like that you show that Socialists always sees themselves as centre left and everybody else as right wing.

It's Trumpian levels of bias.

 

[Johnny75]

Is there an actual definition of what is left and what is right or is it all down to opinion?

The wiki pages on left wing and right wing policies are pretty good as an overall look at this. There are nuanced approaches from other political heavyweights and economists such as TP's link in Friedman.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

It's all about perspective. To someone from Preston we are seen as a bunch of southerners, yet to someone from Carlisle, the man from Preston is seen as a bit of a southerner himself.

 

[Johnny75]

It's all about perspective. To someone from Preston we are seen as a bunch of southerners, yet to someone from Carlisle, the man from Preston is seen as a bit of a southerner himself.

I don't think it is, there are some things that are certainly right and left no matter where you look at them from. Free market banking without regulation and state run railways would be an example of right and left.

 

[Tredman]

I don't think it is, there are some things that are certainly right and left no matter where you look at them from. Free market banking without regulation and state run railways would be an example of right and left.

State run railways are not left wing. State run industries are.

 

[Johnny75]

State run railways are not left wing. State run industries are.

Anything state run is left wing, just as anything free market is right wing by definition.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Anything state run is left wing, just as anything free market is right wing by definition.

It is the reason something is state run that is key. After 2008, certain banks were nationalised to prevent them bringing down capitalism and free markets - hardly left wing. If the reason something is state run is because of a political ideology that is allied to “owning the means of production” then it is left wing. Health and education have, to various degrees, been state run but not necessarily for left wing reasons - a healthy and well educated population has a positive impact on the economic well-being of a capitalist country.

 

[Sniffer]

A small split in the labour party looks likely later this morning. Those rumoured to be going cite the non backing of a referendum as being one of the reasons, however splitting now will probably mean that a peoples vote is less likely.

ITV News’s political editor Robert Peston has posted on his Facebook page about the expected announcement that a group of Labour MPs will leave the party. He says the mystery is not why they are going – their anger at the leadership’s handling of Brexit and anti-semitism is well documented – but why now.

The mystery is why today, rather than in a fortnight or six weeks, when perhaps the UK’s EU destiny will be a bit clearer.

The point is that those running the People’s Vote campaign for a referendum have been desperately trying to persuade Ummuna and Leslie to delay their split - because they think if they were to leave the party now, that would entrench the reluctance of Corbyn and those close to him to back a referendum.

As and when Umunna and co formally leave Labour, the call for a referendum will be closely associated with those who have set themselves up as the enemies of Corbyn and his socialist project. So the referendum-sceptics around Corbyn will tell him that conceding a People’s Vote would be to capitulate to those who want to destroy him.

So the big question for Umunna and the Labour refuseniks today is whether in leaving Labour because they want a referendum they are not in practice undermining the prospect of a referendum.

 

[Tony Towner]

There isn't much going to be another referendum, so the timing is in irrelevant from that perspective. What it will do is move Labour further to the centre left [emoji6]