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Israel-Palestine

prawnking said:
It's a wider argument, but it doesn't help when genocide, infanticide and wiping races off the map are mandated and encouraged in all the Abrahamic 'holy' books. Such baseness betrays their oh-so-human origin more than anything.

What a fucking mess we make of this world sometimes
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I'm not quite as radical as most here on the religion topic.

I generally feel that people find an excuse to further their own means, be it by God, by man, or by money. That's just what history tells me to expect. It's unfortunate that religion is so often used for what we might call "evil", because I also feel that there is enough history to look back on to tell me that religion, too, is an exceptionally human trait for a culture to develop.

Anyway. We needn't go further down that particular rabbit hole.
 
Tredman said:
You're thinking rationally - these are people who see their kids killed by bombs from the sky with no hope for a better life. Who are we to say what we would do if that were us? Its not us so we cannot understand - I know my temperament and I'm pretty sure I would not react in a good way.
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So, a bomb from the sky is the equal of cutting a baby's head off in front of his or her family?
 
Del Woppio said:
It's fucking awful. Basically any Palestinian that isn't already in Egypt will be dead within a few weeks. Israel has basically been granted permission (and assistance!) to wipe out the strip in its entirety, and I can't imagine those in the West Bank will last much longer
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Or, water and power are the only way to barter for the hostages?
 
pavlosmacwolf said:
So, a bomb from the sky is the equal of cutting a baby's head off in front of his or her family?
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This may be a more appropriate way to think about it.

Imagine that every day, all the time, you and your loved ones, and indeed your entire community, have armed explosives strapped to you. You know that the person who put them on you despises you and that they can activate the devices at any time. There are no authorities in reach who can disarm the devices. This goes on for years. Other devices go off now and again so you know the threat always remains.

For years, your family lives in poverty under constant threat of sudden, faceless death.

Imagine what that might do to the human mind?
 
Look, i believe the palestinians have a huge amount of right on their side and israel has a lot to answer for but the palestinians aren't quite so squeaky clean.
The first terrorist incurscions killing israelis in israel began with the Fedayeen incurscions from Gaza in 1953, after the arab invasion of israel that started one day after israel was formed in 1948, and because the arabs lost, came to a peaceful settlement, at least for a while.
PLUS..... in 2006 gaza elected Hamas as their ruling government, and the first governmental dictate that Hamas made was to state that the state of israel had no right to exist and should be wiped off the face of the earth.
So a bit of glass houses and stones n'est ce pas?
 
Ask yourself why the incumbent Fatah lost an election to Hamas.
 
A few years ago some kind of peace looked possibilities but since then both sides have become entrenched and unwilling to compromise even a little. We’ve ended up in a situation where many Palestinians have little to lose and accordingly have a huge hatred of all things Israeli. That drives people to do horrendous acts. The only thing that surprises me about the whole sorry mess is that people are surprised that such acts have been committed. As Alan has observed if you look at history it’s precisely the kind of behaviour you’d expect when the levels of hatred are so high.
 
The political situation in the Middle East, especially Gaza and the West Bank is messy. And it is difficult to separate right from wrong sometimes. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter and all that. I come from the starting point of who is being oppressed. And if you examine Palestine, the situation there is basically apartheid. Over many years the Palestinians have been subjected to some of the most vicious oppression existing in the world today. People are being evicted from their homes and having all their family and possessions taken from them on a daily basis. Thousands of Palestinians have faced torture, imprisonment, death and violence day after day after day. For years. And the world has stood by and excused it, condoned it, enabled it and funded it.

What Hamas has done is horrific and worthy of condemnation. But it wouldn't have happened if the world had condemned the historic oppression of Palestine by Israel. But the western world hasn't, at least not with anything other than mealy mouthed lip service. And what is happening now is a consequence of that. 9/11 is a consequence of that. Islamic terrorism is a consequence of that. Every failure by the West to condemn the actions of Israel in Gaza and the West Bank is fuel to the fire of Islamic terrorism. And that fire is raging and will probably never be extinguished. Those terrorists are evil and worthy of contempt, but their actions have a direct source, and that is the conflict in Palestine and the western condonement of Israel.
 
And still not sure what confirmation you are looking for, as Stan said earlier is killing babies by shooting acceptable? Babies killed in cold blood, not a drone, not a bomb, a conscious choice to to take a life of an infant in cold blood. I think what both the Israeli and Palestinian/Iranian side does is abhorrent, but the technical point you are so keen to make shows you in a light I'm struggling to comprehend
 
Hamas can't win. Their reported actions have strengthened Israel's position. Israel have free reign to carry out any action they wish with apparent justification. It's a win-win for Israel, Hamas is weakened and we in 'The West' who are told by the media to 'support' Israel become more vulnerable (again).
 
More concerned about whether specifics of the atrocity are confirmed or not, or whether Israel is 'strengthened' by this, or how the UK media acts afterwards than the atrocities themselves

What the hell is wrong with some of you?
 
prawnking said:
Weasel words
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Their actions have been reported.

Israel's response should be to root out Hamas terrorist's and deal with them. Very, very carefully.

Killing innocent civillians will lead to more support for the Palestinian 'cause' in the Muslim world, more terrorists recruited and an escalation of violence (probably in the vulnerable West).

History has taught us that in Northern Ireland surely?
 
Where's the unequivocal condemnation of Hamas' actions and outrage at such atrocities?

Why are you more concerned with dispassionately lecturing about what Israel's response should be than even acknowledging with any humanity the actions that necessitated any kind of response in the first place?

And why are you mentioning 'innocent civilians' only in the context of the victims of any reprisals?
 
Wolftone said:
Israel's response should be to root out Hamas terrorist's and deal with them. Very, very carefully.
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We have a counter-terrorism expert in our midst guys. Sounds a piece of piss

The fact that much of the senior leadership of Hamas is shrouded in secrecy and their locations are spread among various countries in the Middle East is neither here or there, I guess
 
Will just point out that the initial attack did not happen in a vacuum. It may have been a surprise, but to call it “unprovoked” I feel would be too dismissive of Israel’s role in Palestinian relations.
 
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This plight of Palestinians is really being brushed under the carpet here, as if they've gone in and butchered friendly neighbors.

What Hamas did at the weekend was absolutely abhorrent, and completely inexcusable. But it's not massively surprising given what they've but up with in modern history. They're not even dirt on the boots of the IDF, caged in the biggest open prison in the world. Their every meal and very existence being at the mercy of Israel's government.

Not defending the action or the disgusting brutality in the slightest, but we're very much being fed only one side of the story
 
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