Iran

[visage]

I did exactly that. You abused your position and got the moderators to try to make me apologise and delete my post. You're a fucking hypocrite and an apologist.

I did no such thing. I reported the post and then left it up to the mods.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Good. Yes was all I needed.

Nobody accused you of murdering anyone, that's your straw man, not mine. But let's be clear about what 'yes there's evidence but we must wait for due process' looks like in practice: it looks like two years of caveats while 60,000 people are buried

Due process is fine. Silence dressed up as balance isn't.

 

[visage]

And the innocents who die in the meantime?

You also did absolutely just restate the argument. “You can’t keep bad guys from guns so what’s the point”.

Theres a clear legal route to removing guns from bad guys in a national context. In the US context repeal the 2A, enact appropriate laws and then enforce them.

Theres no comparable mechanism internationally, unless you're suggesting somebody invades Israel and carts Netanyahu and the IDF off to The Hague.

The guns thing is difficult, but you could plot out a path in terms of what needs to happen. With Israel its hard to know where you'd even start with such a plan.

 

[visage]

Good. Yes was all I needed.

Nobody accused you of murdering anyone, that's your straw man, not mine. But let's be clear about what 'yes there's evidence but we must wait for due process' looks like in practice: it looks like two years of caveats while 60,000 people are buried

Due process is fine. Silence dressed up as balance isn't.

What would you have us do instead?

 

[Alan]

Theres a clear legal route to removing guns from bad guys in a national context. In the US context repeal the 2A, enact appropriate laws and then enforce them.

Theres no comparable mechanism internationally, unless you're suggesting somebody invades Israel and carts Netanyahu and the IDF off to The Hague.

The guns thing is difficult, but you could plot out a path in terms of what needs to happen. With Israel its hard to know where you'd even start with such a plan.

Then at the very least it morally binds us to use our militaries to defend Palestinians from Israel just as we are using them to defend other Gulf states from Iranian drones and missiles just now.

So why don’t we?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

What would you have us do instead?

So in terms of what we could actually do:

The UK has suspended 30 of 350 arms licences. The other 320 are still active. UK-built F-35 components are still getting to Israel through a US spares programme, which the government has admitted breaches its own export laws. How is that still happening?!

The EU-Israel trade agreement is probably the biggest lever. Israel's largest trading partner is the EU suspend preferential access and that's real financial pain. (Obviously that's on the EU, not the UK, but the point remains)

Norway's sovereign wealth fund the biggest in the world has already pulled its investments from Israel. If UK pension funds did the same that's serious money.

And the ICJ has already said countries have a legal duty to stop economic dealings that support Israel's occupation. So there's actually a legal basis for going further, not just a moral one.

The reality is without the US none of it is devastating Israel's economyn as it is largely bankrolled by America. But the "US won't join in" is not a reason to do nothing, it's a reason to keep pushing until it becomes impossible to ignore, especially given how badly Trump is regarded all over the world.

 

[visage]

When you say use our militaries, could you be clear on what you think that involves?

Because my understanding would be doing things like shooting down Israeli aircraft, bombing Israeli artillery positions etc?

 

[Alan]

When you say use our militaries, could you be clear on what you think that involves?

Because my understanding would be doing things like shooting down Israeli aircraft, bombing Israeli artillery positions etc?

To the extent that we are using them to repel Iranian drones and missiles, let's say.

 

[visage]

To the extent that we are using them to repel Iranian drones and missiles, let's say.

Israel arent using drones and missiles though. We'd be talking about pre-emptively shooting down Israeli jets - turning Israeli airspace into a no-fly zone essentially - and we'd be doing it with no associated UN resolution, because the US would absolutely veto any such thing. Plus any such action would result in Israel taking measures against UK forces. So now the UK would be at war with Israel.

So when I say such options arent credible, this is what im talking about. We'd have gone from 'Israel bombing Gaza' to 'Israel bombing Gaza and now also being at war with the UK'.

How is that better?

 

[visage]

And, lest I be accused of just rubbishing these options, there is a credible path to peace.

Removal of Likud and Hamas from power. The latter is largely done through Israels actions, acceptable or otherwise, so the world needs to make Israelis clear that Netanyahu and his cronies are making them a pariah state. Then hope that they see sense and boot them out. Then we work on a two state solution between democratically elected governments on both sides of the divide.

 

[Wilf Wolf]

The only way Netanyahu will see justice is if a more moderate Government is elected in Israel. Doesn’t stop us sending out clear messages in the form of serious sanctions on exports for the horrendous acts he has overseen in Gaza and now Lebanon.

 

[Templeton Peck]

Just not supporting the destruction of Gaza would be enough for me. Both materially and vocally. I'm not expecting Spartacus.