Iran

[Templeton Peck]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2042494646216003810

 

[Wilf Wolf]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2042494646216003810

There’s a big difference between trying to stop someone or something being blown up and trying to blow someone or something up.

 

[Templeton Peck]

There’s a big difference between trying to stop someone or something being blown up and trying to blow someone or something up.

So we're just defending ourselves?

 

[visage]

We're stopping the deaths of innocent people. Ive always thought thats something we should aspire to.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

We're stopping the deaths of innocent people. Ive always thought thats something we should aspire to.

Wow.

 

[visage]

Im guessing you're referring to Israel and Gaza.

But sure, if you have a credible plan to stop Israeli aggression I'm all for it. Because without that its a moot point.

 

[sycophantia]

Wow.

You think its wrong to try and stop missiles and drones attacking Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc, not to mention Cyprus?
Obviously we dont want to help Trump/Israel commit genocide in Iran, Lebanon and Gaza but I'm choosing to believe were not helping with those.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

You think its wrong to try and stop missiles and drones attacking Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc, not to mention Cyprus?
Obviously we dont want to help Trump/Israel commit genocide in Iran, Lebanon and Gaza but I'm choosing to believe were not helping with those.

No i think it's amazing that Visage posted that given how he is constantly defending what Israel does.

 

[visage]

Its a public forum, should bee pretty easy to cite where ive done that. My stance has always been that a) simply wailing 'something must be done' is largely pointless and b) portraying Hamas as plucky freedom fighters is bullshit and Israel has a right to defend itself, while adhering to international norms around proportionality.

If you want to characterise that as 'defending Israel' then knock yourself out.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

The Hamas freedom fighter straw man is embarrassing. Nobody is saying that. What people are saying is this:

The ICC issued arrest warrants for Netanyahu and Gallant for war crimes and crimes against humanity. The ICJ found a plausible genocide case. 60,000+ civilians are dead, and masses of evidence of the IDF just simply assassinating children, for in some cases sport or fun it would seem.

A World Central Kitchen convoy was struck after coordinates were shared directly with the IDF.

Flour convoys were massacred. Hospitals bombed. An entire population deliberately starved.

And now Lebanon. 200+ people killed in Beirut in 10 minutes, crowded residential neighbourhoods, civilian infrastructure, hours after a ceasefire was announced that mediators explicitly said included Lebanon!

Israel ignored it and launched what they called 'Operation Eternal Darkness.' (Cunts) A six-storey building destroyed, the IDF claimed it was a Hezbollah command centre . The BBC verified the identities of the dead. 23 were children.

You've had a proportionality caveat in your back pocket since October 2023. At what point does it actually mean anything? 200,000 dead? 300,000? Or is it just there so you can claim you're being balanced while never once applying it?

That's not a nuanced position. That's complicity with good grammar.

 

[Templeton Peck]

So, we assisted the US in their attacks on Iran and Iran responded by firing drones - some of which we've shot down. Have I missed anything?

 

[visage]

The 'proportionality caveat' that you so glibly dismiss is a fundamental cornerstone of international law regarding war crimes.

And I'm not sure listing things Israel has done somehow makes me in agreement with them.

 

[Alan]

“Bad people always get guns so there is no point regulating them.”

That’s the same argument.

 

[EdgeOfTheAlps]

The 'proportionality caveat' that you so glibly dismiss is a fundamental cornerstone of international law regarding war crimes.

And I'm not sure listing things Israel has done somehow makes me in agreement with them.

A caveat that Isreali 100% fucking ignores, because they unequivocally don't give a shit how many die.

 

[visage]

“Bad people always get guns so there is no point regulating them.”

That’s the same argument.

No. Regulations that have no way of being credibly enforced are pointless would be closer to my position.

 

[visage]

A caveat that Isreali 100% fucking ignores, because they unequivocally don't give a shit how many die.

Well thats why we have The Hague. I certainly think theres a credible case to be heard.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

The 'proportionality caveat' that you so glibly dismiss is a fundamental cornerstone of international law regarding war crimes.

And I'm not sure listing things Israel has done somehow makes me in agreement with them.

Glibly? I listed ICC arrest warrants, ICJ genocide findings, a BBC-verified airstrike that killed children, and a ceasefire breach called "Operation Eternal Darkness" (that names sounds proportionate and not at all insane).

How is that glib? That's a charge sheet!

And yes, proportionality is a cornerstone of international law. The same international law that issued arrest warrants against Netanyahu and Gallant for breaking it. You've just made my point for me.

Of course proportionality is a concept, one i understand.

So let's make it simple. Yes or no: do you think Israel has acted disproportionately?

 

[Alan]

No. Regulations that have no way of being credibly enforced are pointless would be closer to my position.

And the innocents who die in the meantime?

You also did absolutely just restate the argument. “You can’t keep bad guys from guns so what’s the point”.

 

[Dire Wolf]

Its a public forum, should bee pretty easy to cite where ive done that. My stance has always been that a) simply wailing 'something must be done' is largely pointless and b) portraying Hamas as plucky freedom fighters is bullshit and Israel has a right to defend itself, while adhering to international norms around proportionality.

If you want to characterise that as 'defending Israel' then knock yourself out.

I did exactly that. You abused your position and got the moderators to try to make me apologise and delete my post. You're a fucking hypocrite and an apologist.

 

[visage]

So let's make it simple. Yes or no: do you think Israel has acted disproportionately?

I think there is evidence that they have, yes.

But we dont declare guilt based only on the prosecution case.

No doubt some regard this position as tantamount to murdering Gazan children with my own hands.