Cardiff City (A) 30.11.2018 7.45pm

[Jinky]

LACK OF A PLAN B

=


GERRIT FORWARD

And should be treated with similar contempt.

I don’t think that’s what people mean when they say “plan b”.

Clearly Nuno’s plan b is to do plan a better.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I wouldn't at all be against us being able to switch seamlessly to a back four to suit. But then we do not have the players. I would not want Vinagre (for now) or Doherty (ever) as orthodox full backs and bar a few minutes here and there, Coady has not played in the middle of a back four so we have no idea if he's up to the mark either in a standard centre half role.

With this squad, we are where we are tactically bar the possible switch to a three man midfield...but you do that and then you actually do need Doherty to cross the ball. Erm, nope, let's not do that then.

 

[Tony Towner]

LACK OF A PLAN B

=


GERRIT FORWARD

And should be treated with similar contempt.

It doesn't have to mean that though does it? It can mean play 2 up top, it can mean put an extra man in midfield, it can mean go 4 at the back.

Last year it meant on occasion push N'Diaye behind the forward, play Jota/Costa/Cav as rotating false 9's. It doesn't have to mean Traore up front or throw every forward sub on the pitch and hope.

I think it's fair to question Nuno's reaction to the tactics employed by both Watford and Huddersfield as we went behind early in both games and put in a tepid performance for the rest of the match. He was outcoached on both occasions.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

Isn't that actually a really good plan B though?

Mourinho's plan B is lump it to Fellaini. We don't need to change our style that much in implementing a second idea. I like the vacate the midfield and go wider approach for when teams try the Watford template. We can do that in the current formation with a few tweaks.

 

[YoungWolf]

Yeah pretty much.

I think the way Coady has improved in this team he would be better than he previously looked in a holding midfield role - but then we have Neves for that role so while I'm sure he could do the job he just wouldn't get a look in there with the players we have.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

It doesn't have to mean that though does it? It can mean play 2 up top, it can mean put an extra man in midfield, it can mean go 4 at the back.

Last year it meant on occasion push N'Diaye behind the forward, play Jota/Costa/Cav as rotating false 9's. It doesn't have to mean Traore up front or throw every forward sub on the pitch and hope.

I think it's fair to question Nuno's reaction to the tactics employed by both Watford and Huddersfield as we went behind early in both games and put in a tepid performance for the rest of the match. He was outcoached on both occasions.

What I was trying to say was that most of those screaming on social media are of the Gerrit Forward brigade. Not trying to tar you with that brush at all, but that was what I was referring to.

 

[Tony Towner]

What I was trying to say was that most of those screaming on social media are of the Gerrit Forward brigade. Not trying to tar you with that brush at all, but that was what I was referring to.

Fair enough, I don't read much wider social media. Presumably the same people who shout 'shoot' when Ryan Bennett has the ball 30 yards out...

 

[Johnny75]

Yeah pretty much.

I think the way Coady has improved in this team he would be better than he previously looked in a holding midfield role - but then we have Neves for that role so while I'm sure he could do the job he just wouldn't get a look in there with the players we have.

I was watching a coaching clip on twitter of a German team that plays more or less the same system as us and their sweeper would step forward with the ball and allow both central midfielders to go forward. It did mean the keeper became the sweeper which was dangerous but worked. Not sure Rui is the man who can do that.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I was watching a coaching clip on twitter of a German team that plays more or less the same system as us and their sweeper would step forward with the ball and allow both central midfielders to go forward. It did mean the keeper became the sweeper which was dangerous but worked. Not sure Rui is the man who can do that.

That's exactly how Matthias Sammer used to play the role.

Andreas Köpke was no Manuel Neuer but football has changed so much since 1996, you aren't going to get an exact fit.

The nearest in recent times would probably be David Luiz in the few months that Conte's Chelsea were actually good, let Azpilicueta/Cahill do the defending (before Cahill totally lost it and turned into a human ironing board) and he can get on with just playing football. Courtois is ok on the ball too if you need him to do a bit.

 

[Johnny75]

I think that's where Dendoncker could be good instead of Bennett. He and Boly could drive forward and allow Neves and MGW to go forward more.

 

[Paddingtonwolf]

I do think the time to see Dendoncker is coming soon. Whether it will be Cardiff I don't know, but it wouldn't shock me.

 

[YoungWolf]

I was watching a coaching clip on twitter of a German team that plays more or less the same system as us and their sweeper would step forward with the ball and allow both central midfielders to go forward. It did mean the keeper became the sweeper which was dangerous but worked. Not sure Rui is the man who can do that.

Might have been Hamburg this season? A bit extreme and the manager has been sacked fairly recently I think mind :icon_lol:

That's exactly how Matthias Sammer used to play the role.

Andreas Köpke was no Manuel Neuer but football has changed so much since 1996, you aren't going to get an exact fit.

The nearest in recent times would probably be David Luiz in the few months that Conte's Chelsea were actually good, let Azpilicueta/Cahill do the defending (before Cahill totally lost it and turned into a human ironing board) and he can get on with just playing football. Courtois is ok on the ball too if you need him to do a bit.

Agree.

We use Coady how Spurs used Alderweireld when they play that system, rather than like Luiz comes forwards with it - different pros and cons I suppose.

Rui most certainly doesn't have the distribution, which is OK in how we play currently but a shame as he's on otherwise awesome goalkeeper and would help us progress as a team a bit further.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Might have been Hamburg this season? A bit extreme and the manager has been sacked fairly recently I think mind :icon_lol:

They were a nightmare under Christian Titz :icon_lol: Got some results but everything was so ridiculously risky and they took a couple of thumpings (which they should not in that league). The keeper is absolutely not good enough to do that either. Look better now under Hannes Wolf.

Titz was like their Rob Edwards, overpromoted from the U23 team and had some ideas which are really intriguing on paper but for the love of God, do not try them if you don't have the players, it will look terrible.

 

[YoungWolf]

I was reading about them as I'd seen a discussion on twitter which had started with Thiago Motta's supposed '2-7-2' formation. I mean I find it interesting but it didn't surprise me to read that he had then been sacked! Imagine if we had Rui playing that high with the ball :icon_lol:

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We discussed them briefly on the manager thread, some who don't really follow 2.Bundesliga (why would you) couldn't believe he'd been sacked when they were something like two points off the top two but it was never going to end well, he had to go. They lost 5-0 at home to Regensburg (!) and then had three 0-0s out of four. BT have turned one of their channels into a full on HSV tribute so I have seen them loads, it was a mess (and they HAVE to go back up this season from a financial perspective).

As I say, think of Rob's inverted full backs using CBJ and Doc. With Teixeira in central midfield. And Batth/Lonergan/Iorfa trying to play the ball out. Spot the flaws.

 

[YoungWolf]

Oh god don't get me started on that Derby game :facepalm:

I think he just saw that as his moment to prove himself but it rather backfired. I wonder if he tried it in the Conference North last season...

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

That opening half hour and the final 20 minutes vs Barnsley a few weeks before are the only two games this century where anything has even remotely rivalled the Saunders era for sheer ineptitude. The only times where you're literally rubbing your eyes and thinking "what the living fuck is going on?!"

Sunday was bad, Hoddle/latter Ken/Lambert games were frequently dull beyond belief, Solbakken was doomed and a terrible fit, TC was just a very sad time for all concerned, the back end of DJ's time was a complete mess, but nothing like on that level. Where you're genuinely thinking that 11 blokes randomly pulled out of the stand, regardless of how much they'd had to drink wouldn't do any worse.

 

[YoungWolf]

I remember listening to the Barnsley game - hadn't we been OK before that capitulation?

But yeah, I keep trying to wipe the majority of those Saunders games out of my memory. Fortunately I only saw the ones on TV as I didn't go to any during his spell as manager. Watford at home springs to mind where we somehow drew and Hunt put in the worst performance I have ever seen from a Wolves player).

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We were abysmal in the first half vs Barnsley. We got worse from there.

Could quite easily have been 7-0. Full marks to Doc in that one for being "injured" and rolling back onto the pitch to waste a bit of time. When we were already 2-0 or 3-0 down (I forget which).

His fake injury did not keep him out of the next game.

Watford was quite a good game for Saunders, it wouldn't even make the bottom five. Maybe not even bottom ten.

 

[YoungWolf]

What a high bar that is!