3/5 at the back

[YoungWolf]

I thought this would be an interesting discussion. It surfaced a couple of times when we played teams who tried to spoil us last season (most times unsuccessful because of our far superior quality) and then it has been mentioned a couple of times last season.

It's been on my mind, especially reading Pochettino's 'biography' (but weirdly written in the first person by Balague) where he often mentions switching from a back three or back four, and when you watch his teams you realise how fluid they are and capable of switching systems in game. And similarly, as a huge fan of Pep, his teams are able to do the same, based on how the game is going, what the opponents weaknesses are, where there strengths may lay etc.. I'd like to think this is a point that we can get to eventually, where we are able to play with just two centre backs and allow an extra player in either the midfield or forward lines.

Nuno isn't someone who has been wedded to one formation in the past. At Valencia he played several systems and at Porto he changed his system half way through the season I believe? He has obviously shown we can also adapt with us to find solutions by playing the 5-3-2/3-5-2 but playing with a back three where only one of them is truly capable of driving forward with the ball to draw out opponents does limit us when teams defend in a low block.

Currently though, we clearly don't have the players to do this. I wouldn't trust Bennett/Coady in a centre back pairing (though they could prove that wrong as they have already done so in other ways), nor would you want Doherty playing in a back four. The current system not only helps to mask individual's deficiencies and play to their strengths but also helps with our build up. Having the spare man to relieve pressure allows us to retain possession and switch the point of attack quickly. Additionally, the solid base of a back three with the two or three midfielders in front of them limits the danger of the counter attack from the opposition.

I hope that the aim will be in the summer (or perhaps more likely the following summer) to be able to bring in plays that allow this flexibility whilst also improving our quality. A right sided centre back will always be linked while Bennett is first choice but it will need to be a serious upgrade, we won't just sign anyone as it will be very important to how we evolve as a team. This is probably outlandish but Konate from Leipzig would be ideal, though he is still very young. Likewise a wing back/full back with the quality of Jonny, and Vinagre as he develops, will be important I feel.

It's also a challenge for Nuno to show the level of manager that we know he can be. The likes of Pep, Poch, Allegri (?) and many others have all shown that at the very top you need to be able to find different solutions to be successful and that the players have to be at such a high level technically and tactically.

Interested to know people's thoughts anyway. I think we will stick with the set up at the back for some time yet but in terms of 'breaking the top six' long term we may need to evolve in the ways I have mentioned.

 

[Lycan]

I still feel Dendoncker will work his way into the back 3, whether that's in the centre or on the right I'm not so sure about.

I think 3-4-3 will reappear at some point, as long as we can add some serious quality at the inside forward & outside centre back positions. We can't achieve the kind of dominance at this level with the same players we used at Championship level but that shape is definitely worth persevering with.

Nuno has talked about the importance of not adapting to the opposition too much as you risk negating your own strengths at the same time. However, If we can add the kind of tactical flexibility that you talk about to our 'identity' then I don't see why we couldn't make those sort of changes mid game.

 

[YoungWolf]

I think he'd be pretty good bringing the ball forwards either from the middle or the outside like Boly does.

I agree regarding 3-4-3. I think we need consistency from the third player though - Costa had his chance, Traore has not convinced, and Cav as much as I love him is probably first in line to be sold (though I think Costa may be overtaking him now). That or play MGW there as I think he receives between the lines very well.

I think the 3 in midfield we have played recently would be very good in a 4-3-3. Just we don't have the players to perform that system overall. It would probably be something like this:

Patricio

Doherty Bennett/Coady Boly Jonny

Donck Neves Moutinho

Traore Jimenez Jota

 

[Premier Quality]

I really like the system, but I think you’re right that it’s slightly hindered by some of the players we have at the moment. To make this work brilliantly, players would have to be really comfortable on the ball, have pace and in a lot of cases, the ability to break the lines when opponents are pressing.

Bennett for example is a fantastic defender when the opposition are on top, but struggles with his distribution when we are - he’s not quick enough at recycling play. I agree Donk would be similar to Boly if he has the defensive discipline, and thought that was why he was signed at the time.

I don’t necessarily think the system is the issue, more the speed were able to recycle the ball under pressure - I said last night that we need help to break the lines in games like yesterday, either with quick triangles to get through the press, or by dribbling past someone. Once you can do that, the opposition can’t just keep pressing all the time and it becomes a less effective tactic. We’re too slow and predictable at times, and that for me has to be the area we improve in as we get better quality players.

 

[Johnny75]

I think we have a good squad for 3-5-2 right now and need to add bits to it in the form of better players/ more depth. I think the deeper midfielder (Neves/ Saiss) with the box-to-box player (Donk) works well, particularly with Moutinho in front of them with a high work rate.

Having said that I would like the player furthest forward in the 3 to be more of a goal threat which Moutinho as great as he is isn't really that. And that brings the inbalance of the wing backs into question. I think a left footed wing back in this system works better, simply because it offers width. Jota plays better with Vinagre than Jonny and that is because of this width.

It is the same with Raul/ Donk/ Doc down the right. Doc is much better out wide and attacking from that side and Raul and Donk prefer the space inside so they can move out into wide spaces as Doc cuts in. The difference with our left hand side is that Doc can go on the outside as well and sadly with Jonny out wide he isn't a threat for doing that. To improve as a squad we need a player to do that consistently.

What I see is that we have a squad which cannot play 3-4-3. For this to work we need two incredibly mobile players in the middle and barring Donk I don't think any of the others can do that role. Neves is world class at the base of a 3 much like Fabinho at Liverpool and a much better version of Jorginho at Chelsea. But in a 2 in the middle he does not have that ability at this level. We would need a KdB type to play with Donk for that to happen and I can't see us buying him at any point soon.

We also don't have the wide forwards to do this, if you look at Martial, Hazard, Sterling or Mane who regularly can switch from inside to outside then Jota is the only player that comes close to their abilities.

Rather than switching to 3-4-3 from 3-5-2 I'd like to see us switch more to a 4-3-3 where our central 3 stay the same, Jonny switches to RB who can get forward and Vinagre on the right as both are very good defenders but like to get forward. It means (unpopularity) that we would need to drop Coady and Doc and get a true CB in who can switch between RCB and a CB in a 4-3-3.

That would allow us to keep Raul centrally and Jota and A.N.Other can play the wider forwards a la Mane and Salah at L'Pool or Sterling/ Sane at City. Nuno has played 4-3-3 and it is more attacking than 3-5-2.

We would line up as:

---------------------Patricio------------------ ------------------------Patricio----------------------------

---------Bennett---Coady---Boly----------- ---Jonny-----New CB-------- Boly--------Vinagre-----

--Doc-------Donk-------Neves-----Jonny-- -------------------------Neves-----------------------------

---------------------Moutinho--------------- ---------------Moutinho-------Donk---------------------

-------------Raul--------------Jota---------- ------New-------------Raul--------------Jota------------

 

[Tredman]

I would still like to see Donck drop into Bennett's position - his ability to bring the forward there would give us another Boly type option. Our biggest issue atm is that teams are very happy to let Bennett be the free man and double up elsewhere as they know when we have possession and he has the ball we are not a threat. We could then look to find a better box to box midfielder - I don't think Donck is the long term answer there.

Unsurprisingly I would not be dropping Coady, ever, so we either stick with 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 or look to test him in an two with Boly. I think it will leave use short though as neither Moutinho or Neves offer an additional height option to help out at the back if one of the CBs is caught out of position.

I think we stick with our current formation, but look to add some more quality - another CM, another CF and consider Jonny to RWB with Vini playing more often.

 

[YoungWolf]

I think Neves and Moutinho can still play as a pair in the 3-4-3. I think we just require Ruben to play slightly higher than when he is dropping so deep to collect the ball when Coady is perfectly capable from that area of the pitch. It helps with build up sometimes but when a team drops off of us it really limits us being able to break them down.

I think the main issue has been who the third forward would be, as you have said Johnny. Traore is best played very wide which doesn't really suit that position, and Costa has really struggled for form for a long time now. It's not easy to find but someone of the same quality of Raul and Diogo and suddenly we would have a very frightening front three which opposition teams would have to be more wary off, allowing slightly more space for our midfielders whereas previously they have been swamped.

We also need to work out how we can break down a back five more effectively, no easy feat but will require us to play through the middle more I think. If we have two inside forwards who can play in those 'half-spaces' for want of a better phrase then that would also make a huge difference I think.

 

[lemonjelly]

I would still like to see Donck drop into Bennett's position - his ability to bring the forward there would give us another Boly type option. Our biggest issue atm is that teams are very happy to let Bennett be the free man and double up elsewhere as they know when we have possession and he has the ball we are not a threat. We could then look to find a better box to box midfielder - I don't think Donck is the long term answer there.
.

This doesn't make sense to me. Why move someone who is "not the answer" to a position they're not the answer for? All you're doing is moving a problem.

I also suspect I am an outlier, but my perception is the vast majority expect Bennett to be the first player/position we upgrade on. I still remain to be convinced on that point.

 

[lemonjelly]

Kinda like YW's post in reply to Johnny, I think we'll see amendments to the front line.
My instinct is Cav & Costa will go this summer. I think patience in Costa has worn thin. A shame for both, as both have shown they've a lot to give, but I doubt that where we're aiming for we can give them much more time.
I suspect Nuno will stick with Traore for another season, and there will be A LOT OF work done with him in the close season. He'll be given until January to show what he can do.

Assuming we sign Jiminez, I think we'll sign 2 additional forwards who are likely to play across the front 3.

I don't see us even considering a back 4. Unless we have a major emergency.

 

[StuardoWulf]

This doesn't make sense to me. Why move someone who is "not the answer" to a position they're not the answer for? All you're doing is moving a problem.

I also suspect I am an outlier, but my perception is the vast majority expect Bennett to be the first player/position we upgrade on. I still remain to be convinced on that point.

I also dont think that that is our top priority. Only Newcastle have conceded less goals (of the teams below us) and we've conceded less than Man U and Aresnal. If we require a reason for our lack of creativity it ain't at the back. I agree his passing isn't as good as we'd like but he is a decent defender.

 

[lemonjelly]

I actually think his passing is better than most give him credit for. His defending has been really effective too.
As I say, I'm probably a minority on this view, but I feel he's more consistent than other defenders. He hasn't got some of the skill levels Boly has, which makes Boly stand out, but for me Bennett has been more consistent than Boly.

Kenny would ban me if he wasn't in the states...

 

[YoungWolf]

Boly has been by far the best of our back three IMO.

Bennett has had a great season, but we are moving forwards quite quickly and he like many are vulnerable to that I would say. His passing has improved but we have definitely seen teams target that if they set a pressing trap on him he is less likely to play successful passes under pressure. While he is in our team I have absolutely no worries that he will continue to form part of a very effective defence!

 

[Tredman]

This doesn't make sense to me. Why move someone who is "not the answer" to a position they're not the answer for? All you're doing is moving a problem.

I also suspect I am an outlier, but my perception is the vast majority expect Bennett to be the first player/position we upgrade on. I still remain to be convinced on that point.

I think YW already kinda explained it - Donk doesn't seem a perfect fit as a box to box midfielder to me, but given his qualities and experience he could be a very good RCB. He's big, he can tackle plus he can bring the ball out like Boly and has a good pass on him.

As good as Bennett is he is not a long term solution when you play 3 at the back - our CBs need to have attacking qualities in that system and other than his throw he doesn't have that.

 

[b3h]

I actually think his passing is better than most give him credit for. His defending has been really effective too.
As I say, I'm probably a minority on this view, but I feel he's more consistent than other defenders. He hasn't got some of the skill levels Boly has, which makes Boly stand out, but for me Bennett has been more consistent than Boly.

Kenny would ban me if he wasn't in the states...

I actually think his passing is better than most give him credit for. His defending has been really effective too.
As I say, I'm probably a minority on this view, but I feel he's more consistent than other defenders. He hasn't got some of the skill levels Boly has, which makes Boly stand out, but for me Bennett has been more consistent than Boly.

Kenny would ban me if he wasn't in the states...

Very solid, only the odd time he gets caught out and left chasing a man back, also only the odd time he gets a tackle wrong/late (rather than a dark arts tackle). I think it's close.

Boly is miles ahead in control and passing, not caring about hugging the sideline or taking a man on etc though.

 

[Monstrum]

Donk is gonna be a great (albeit more defensive) box to box, with more training and games, hes got all the right physcial and mental qualities, the technical stuff can be taught. Just watch. He would be wasted as a defender. Its gonna be a lot easier to find an upgrade to bennett than to find a world class box to box midfielder to replace him