The Velotard Thread.

[machin05]

Yeah, the whole insurance argument is pretty nonsensical tbh. I'm insured multiple times. I have specific bike insurance for one of my bikes, house insurance covers the others and I have commuting insurance through British Cycling membership, as do most other cyclists I know.

Registration offers no tangible advantages and would cost a hell of a lot to administer. Aside from that, it is clearly not a deterent for poor driving and/or motorist behaivour, so why would it be any different for cyclists?

 

[machin05]

Unfortunately it doesn’t work well in practice at all. The main flaw is in busy traffic (that roundabout is near the hospital so is more often than not), as cars creep forward to the roundabout you have stationary cars in front of the cycle ‘ring’ (see the black car in picture) as well as queuing behind the zebra crossing, meaning that cyclists are obscured from view of cars exiting the roundabout - they suddenly appear from behind the stationary car and it’s terrifying for the cyclists and drivers alike.
I suspect any statistical evidence that this roundabout might be safer than the adequate one that was already there, is due to the confusion and terror of everyone using it and people adjusting their speeds accordingly. Only a matter of time before someone is killed there, I have no doubt.

So if its statistically safer due to drivers slowing down to use it, hasn't that achieved its primary aim?

 

[machin05]

Good points well made, although that didn’t help much when a language student rode into the back of my car while I was stationary in traffic. She shrugged her shoulders and pedalled off. I checked the rear which looked ok, but didn’t realise until I got home her metal basket had gouged along the rear quarter panel to the tune of £700. Sure, some car drivers are uninsured but that sort of thing leaves a very bad taste.

I mean, I could tell you an anecdote about an uninsured, untaxed and unMOT'd drunker driver smashing up mine and 2 other cars on my way to work one day for balance if you like... Which one caused more damage and endangered more lives and is more commonplace on the roads of the UK?

 

[EpsomWolf]

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.cambridgeindependent.co.uk/news/amp/woman-in-20s-dies-after-collision-near-addenbrooke-s-hospita-9219565/

Just to make clear this isn’t related to the Dutch roundabout, but a poor young woman lost her life just yards from there on Fendon Road on her way to work just a few days ago. Terrible things like that make you think. Could’ve happened to any one of us. Shocking news.

 

[EpsomWolf]

So if its statistically safer due to drivers slowing down to use it, hasn't that achieved its primary aim?

The confusion tactic was admitted in the design of the Tenison Road project, I’m not sure it’s anything more than a lucky byproduct of the Fendon Road one. Besides, it wouldn’t’ve cost £2.2 million to put a load of speed bumps in if that was the primary aim.

 

[Tredman]

Unfortunately it doesn’t work well in practice at all. The main flaw is in busy traffic (that roundabout is near the hospital so is more often than not), as cars creep forward to the roundabout you have stationary cars in front of the cycle ‘ring’ (see the black car in picture) as well as queuing behind the zebra crossing, meaning that cyclists are obscured from view of cars exiting the roundabout - they suddenly appear from behind the stationary car and it’s terrifying for the cyclists and drivers alike.
I suspect any statistical evidence that this roundabout might be safer than the adequate one that was already there, is due to the confusion and terror of everyone using it and people adjusting their speeds accordingly. Only a matter of time before someone is killed there, I have no doubt.

That's literally the point - make drivers more cautious and less likely to run people over on cycle paths next to them. I have this near me:

[cycle path crosses the 'o; of Ampleforth]

At least once per month a cyclist is injured, very badly just last week for example. I'd take drivers being cautious over that.

I don't disagree that Dutch roundabouts can be a little chaotic - I use them often enough, but they are much safer because the make users more nervous.

 

[EpsomWolf]

I don’t think anyone will ever be convinced having obscured cyclists jettisoning from behind stationary vehicles into the path of a car accelerating as it exits a roundabout, is anything other than madness and an accident waiting to happen. It’s hard to believe it was a deliberate design strategy to put people in that sort of danger.

Instead of being the new model showcase to be rolled out nationwide, I predict this to be dug up or at least heavily modified, within 3 to 5 years, sooner if/when someone is killed or seriously injured.

Let’s hope everyone stays safe, but in terms of slowing traffic down to save lives, this particular roundabout is very much the wrong way to be going about it.

 

[Throbber3]

I don’t think anyone will ever be convinced having obscured cyclists jettisoning from behind stationary vehicles into the path of a car accelerating as it exits a roundabout, is anything other than madness and an accident waiting to happen. It’s hard to believe it was a deliberate design strategy to put people in that sort of danger.

Instead of being the new model showcase to be rolled out nationwide, I predict this to be dug up or at least heavily modified, within 3 to 5 years, sooner if/when someone is killed or seriously injured.

Let’s hope everyone stays safe, but in terms of slowing traffic down to save lives, this particular roundabout is very much the wrong way to be going about it.

It has all the hallmarks of a Cambridge vanity project , of which there are a number. I dont disagree that the dutch style roundabout does make every driver and cyclist more nervous and therefore more careful but its a 2m plus hole in a budget when there are pot holes on main roads and pathways that cause more problems. Hills Road is now a slow moving crawl thanks to the clusterF**k they put in place there with a 20mph speed limit and buses that block the main carriageway. Its a nonsense. It just pisses car drivers off who are then even less tolerant when there are cyclists who ignore signs, red lights , etc etc. Cambridge is a mess. They just had to back track over closing the mill road bridge at considerable expense only for it to re-open a year later

 

[machin05]

Fwiw, I see far more drivers going through red lights than cyclists everyday.

 

[Johnny75]

Fwiw, I see far more drivers going through red lights than cyclists everyday.

Really?

Some of the behaviour of cyclists is really poor. I can't remember the last time I saw a car driver go straight through a red light (not one on the turn/ just turned).

I see plenty of cyclists just go straight through them or skip onto the pavement to get round them.

There's poor behaviours on both sides. And it really should not be a them and us argument.

 

[machin05]

Yep. At least once per journey. Amber gambling taken too far.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

I work for the company which designed that - the brief was to do a Dutch-style roundabout in the UK. Same works perfectly well there and the above works well here. Looks complicated from above, but in practise its fine.

Intrigued to see how it works for something long like a bus trying to navigate that island, due to their length they'd have to stop short of the zebra crossing to avoid obstructing any other right of way but at busy times I'd imagine it's very difficult for them to have a clear run through all of the zebra crossing, cycle lane of the roundabout and vehicles coming from the right for them to easily pull out.

 

[Johnny75]

Yep. At least once per journey. Amber gambling taken too far.

That's what I mean, when was the last time you didn't see an amber gamble but a car just barrelling through a red light?

Too often I've seen cyclists do it.

 

[Tredman]

Intrigued to see how it works for something long like a bus trying to navigate that island, due to their length they'd have to stop short of the zebra crossing to avoid obstructing any other right of way but at busy times I'd imagine it's very difficult for them to have a clear run through all of the zebra crossing, cycle lane of the roundabout and vehicles coming from the right for them to easily pull out.

Honestly, no idea. Been on plenty of busses in NL going through them and not seen any accidents whatsoever. Actually I don't think I've ever seen a cycling accident there.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Honestly, no idea. Been on plenty of busses in NL going through them and not seen any accidents whatsoever. Actually I don't think I've ever seen a cycling accident there.

Not so much an accident I'd anticipate, more so a bus or HGV becoming a bit stuck for quite a while as they're too big to hop betweening the different lanes that cross their path and too lumpent to take advantage of the small opportunities where gaps align in all those lanes at busy periods.

 

[Tredman]

Not so much an accident I'd anticipate, more so a bus or HGV becoming a bit stuck for quite a while as they're too big to hop betweening the different lanes that cross their path and too lumpent to take advantage of the small opportunities where gaps align in all those lanes at busy periods.

No doubt I think city centre travel is slower there, but less people die so, y'know

 

[machin05]

That's what I mean, when was the last time you didn't see an amber gamble but a car just barrelling through a red light?

Too often I've seen cyclists do it.

A red light is a red light, ay it?

 

[MARKakaJIM]

No doubt I think city centre travel is slower there, but less people die so, y'know

I suppose you can overcome it to an extent by the way you route certain vehicles. Such as don't have your primary cycle routes overlapping with busy bus routes and keeping HGVs out of the equation all together as much as you can. For smaller vehicles the concentric circles for different types of traffic around the island works quite well, allowing them to navigate each lane individually as long as there's a car sized hole between each layer.

It's a really awkward problem to overcome to be fair because the big towns and cities where these problems are most abundant are also the places where the space required to rectify them is most at a premium, and the disruption caused by the work would be most amplified. I'd love to have more, better integrated, public transport options for getting into these type of places, driving in them is unbearable, but I think sort of banning the car and making them very difficult to access at all until new infrastructure is built then it's very difficult to achieve.

 

[Tredman]

This is the one outside of the hotel I stay at in NL, don't think it could get more complex if it tried - but I never see any accidents, and I've crossed it hundreds of times

 

[Johnny75]

A red light is a red light, ay it?

It is, bad behaviour from all concerned, cyclists are not above the law.