REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[darlowolf64]

That’s what happened with Northern Rock, it went to court, the government won.

I think £40 billion is the estimated up front cost but the “have to find cash” analogy is wrong. The government doesn’t deal in cash.

Well they seem to have found plenty of cash to do a deal with the DUP to keep power...

 

[Johnny75]

That’s what happened with Northern Rock, it went to court, the government won.

I think £40 billion is the estimated up front cost but the “have to find cash” analogy is wrong. The government doesn’t deal in cash.

It will do when it is buying businesses not bailing them out. The Northern Rock example isn't valid as the business would not exist without a government bailout, the businesses involved in the Nationalisation of Rail and Utilities most certainly are in the main and that is a completely different argument to NR.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

It will do when it is buying businesses not bailing them out. The Northern Rock example isn't valid as the business would not exist without a government bailout, the businesses involved in the Nationalisation of Rail and Utilities most certainly are in the main and that is a completely different argument to NR.

That wasn't the basis of the court case or the decision. The court ruled on whether the shares were undervalued not whether the govt could buy them.

 

[Johnny75]

That wasn't the basis of the court case or the decision. The court ruled on whether the shares were undervalued not whether the govt could buy them.

So Northern Rock had already agreed to sell as effectively they were bust (and the govt were the only buyer). The process of buying a business in administration is much more different process from a business that doesn't want to be bought. These businesses are unlikely to want to sell and if they do then they will set the price not a court.

The NR case isn't applicable to any of the Utilities and most of the Rail Franchises. I can't imagine Centrica saying 'yeah you can have everything for a reasonable price'. It'll be astronomical as they aren't going bust.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

So Northern Rock had already agreed to sell as effectively they were bust (and the govt were the only buyer). The process of buying a business in administration is much more different process from a business that doesn't want to be bought. These businesses are unlikely to want to sell and if they do then they will set the price not a court.

The NR case isn't applicable to any of the Utilities and most of the Rail Franchises. I can't imagine Centrica saying 'yeah you can have everything for a reasonable price'. It'll be astronomical as they aren't going bust.

But Labour weren’t proposing to buy out Centrica. When it came to energy their plans were/are to create public utility companies (Bristol have one I believe) owned by the state at a local level to compete with existing companies.

With Royal Mail the plan was/is to take control of just over 50% of shares.

The Rail Network is already publicly owned and government would just take over franchises as their lease expires.

 

[Johnny75]

But Labour weren’t proposing to buy out Centrica. When it came to energy their plans were/are to create public utility companies (Bristol have one I believe) owned by the state at a local level to compete with existing companies.

With Royal Mail the plan was/is to take control of just over 50% of shares.

The Rail Network is already publicly owned and government would just take over franchises as their lease expires.

I wouldn't have a problem with the government starting up publicly owned companies to compete with existing companies but unless I am reading it wrong that isn't what the manifesto says.

The manifesto states:

• Bring private rail companies back into public ownership as their franchises expire.
• Regain control of energy supply networks through the alteration of operator license conditions, and transition to a publicly owned, decentralised energy system.
• Replace our dysfunctional water system with a network of regional publicly-owned water companies.
• Reverse the privatisation of Royal Mail at the earliest opportunity.

They all read like they are trying to change the rules without challenge so Labour can put their own publicly owned companies in place. Essentially putting BR, Royal Mail, Severn Trent and the MEB back into existence.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

I wouldn't have a problem with the government starting up publicly owned companies to compete with existing companies but unless I am reading it wrong that isn't what the manifesto says.

The manifesto states:



They all read like they are trying to change the rules without challenge so Labour can put their own publicly owned companies in place. Essentially putting BR, Royal Mail, Severn Trent and the MEB back into existence.

In a parliamentary democracy, challenge to changing the rules comes in parliament but by definition most legislative measures change the rules to some extent. First and foremost, nationalisation and privatisation are political issues. Both come with costs and benefits. Whether it happens comes down to the electorate, it is clearly a stated aim of the Labour Party so if there was an election and if they won they would have a mandate to proceed and I am pretty sure there would be plenty of challenges in and out of parliament.

But yes, it does look like MEB would come back.

 

[AndyWolves]

Because even though it's a sham and Parliament have made a shambles of it, the Commons is still due to have a final vote on whether to accept whatever the Government come back with as a deal in 2019. If the impact hasn't been studied then they can't say whether it is or isn't viable.

Does that give us an out (or even an in!) then? If Commons can't make an informed decision then they can play the whole administrative cock up thing and not approve brexit

I might be clutching at straws

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

They can reject the deal proposed which means we default to no deal.

Yeah, it's a mess. Because this Government is awful and wanted to rule in the manner of 16th century Tudors, and Labour decided to wave it all through and complain later.

 

[Langers]

Labour aren't complaining anywhere near enough for me which I've found really disappointing.

Fuck 'the will of the people' - this isn't going to work and it's all going to pot. Cancel the fucking thing before we reach the point of no return.

 

[Tony Towner]

Labour aren't complaining anywhere near enough for me which I've found really disappointing.

$#@! 'the will of the people' - this isn't going to work and it's all going to pot. Cancel the $#@!ing thing before we reach the point of no return.

I said this a week or so ago. The say nothing approach made political sense at conference season, now it just looks spineless. Labour should be working with the unions to convince voters in traditional Labour strongholds why this will be an unmitigated disaster and not just watch the Tories to continuing to fuck it up because they are scared of the backlash.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

The EU has just sorted out a FTA with Japan. Let's see how quickly our crack negotiators get the same or EVEN BETTER deal for us. It's an inevitability.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

The EU has just sorted out a FTA with Japan. Let's see how quickly our crack negotiators get the same or EVEN BETTER deal for us. It's an inevitability.

Which has taken 7 years to finalise.

 

[Johnny75]

The EU has just sorted out a FTA with Japan. Let's see how quickly our crack negotiators get the same or EVEN BETTER deal for us. It's an inevitability.

In theory as it is country to country it should take a lot less time than dealing with the EU and the deal should be specific to both countries rather than a wide bloc. However I wouldn't back our current bunch of gizzmonkeys to get anything remotely decent on time.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

In theory as it is country to country it should take a lot less time than dealing with the EU and the deal should be specific to both countries rather than a wide bloc. However I wouldn't back our current bunch of gizzmonkeys to get anything remotely decent on time.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...res-japanese-pledge-on-post-brexit-trade-deal

The UK already has an agreement for a deal with Japan post Brexit, which has effectively been agreed by EU negotiators. Maybe this is our play, let the EU do a deal and then we piggy back onto it. Makes sense but hardly taking back control if all the negotiation is done by the EU.

 

[Johnny75]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...res-japanese-pledge-on-post-brexit-trade-deal

The UK already has an agreement for a deal with Japan post Brexit, which has effectively been agreed by EU negotiators. Maybe this is our play, let the EU do a deal and then we piggy back onto it. Makes sense but hardly taking back control if all the negotiation is done by the EU.

Without knowing the in's and out's of the deal I wouldn't have thought a deal the EU has negotiated would be in the UK's best interests. In fact both deals should be completely different to ensure we are not in direct competition with the EU as that is a crackers approach.

 

[Tyrannosaurus Dan]

Daily Express tweeting: 'Brexit SHOCK warning: Britain will be WORSE OFF out of the EU under ALL Brexit Scenario's.'

Really? I mean, WHO COULD HAVE PREDICTED THAT??? WHAT. A. SHOCK.

 

[Tredman]

Fuck heads.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

Without knowing the in's and out's of the deal I wouldn't have thought a deal the EU has negotiated would be in the UK's best interests. In fact both deals should be completely different to ensure we are not in direct competition with the EU as that is a crackers approach.

You’ve lost me.

 

[Johnny75]

You’ve lost me.

EU deal - good for the EU not necessarily the UK

For the UK to follow that deal wouldn't be good, it should be bespoke for the two countries in the deal which should be different. Negotiating that however is a different matter and could take years It shouldn't but the level of ineptitude we've seen so far with the Brexit doesn't fill me with hope.