REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deleted Cyber]

You're miles off. Do you know what fraction of benefit claimants pick up that much? It's probably less than the proportion of goals scored this season in the Championship by Wolves strikers.

OK. I live in a rural location. I went into my local co op today. There were 4 people in the queue in front of me . 2 I know are single mums not working. 1 is a married lady not working invalidity benefit. 1 gent long term unemployed. All 4 bought either cigarettes or tobacco.3 of the 4 bought lottery tickets or scratch cards. 1 bought 4 x £5 cards. I have worked all my life. I cant afford to spunk money like that. When I see it happening so often is it any wonder I doubt the sysdtem and feel misanthropic?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...tage-of-all-claimants-of-each-type-of-benefit if it helps

 

[Papper]

You're miles off. Do you know what fraction of benefit claimants pick up that much? It's probably less than the proportion of goals scored this season in the Championship by Wolves strikers.

But that's my point. Base subsistence levels are just that. What should a persons level of income be to take them off welfare (regardless of how they achieve this). I'm sure a figure of about £25K is about right when you take into account the cost of living. Obviously you differentiate between the various demographics i.e. single, single with child, married with child etc.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Why single out immigrants?

Surely it's the population increase that's the problem, rather than the origin on the individuals, so why don't we stop everyone from having anymore children until investment in infrastructure has increased to a point that we're back on an even keel?

Cause we are not China mate ttft

 

[visage]

OK. I live in a rural location. I went into my local co op today. There were 4 people in the queue in front of me . 2 I know are single mums not working. 1 is a married lady not working invalidity benefit. 1 gent long term unemployed. All 4 bought either cigarettes or tobacco.3 of the 4 bought lottery tickets or scratch cards. 1 bought 4 x £5 cards. I have worked all my life. I cant afford to spunk money like that. When I see it happening so often is it any wonder I doubt the sysdtem and feel misanthropic?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...tage-of-all-claimants-of-each-type-of-benefit if it helps

85% of allegations of benefit fraud turn out (once people work with facts rather than what they see in the corner shop) to be false.

So you'll forgive me if I dont get into a frothing rage over your anecdote.

 

[So Long Architect]

Isn't the rising cost of health provision as much down to an ageing population as pure numbers? As has been pointed out, immigrants are generally young and healthy (and often very good-looking but that's a side issue) - it's the old duffers you need to be focusing your fire on.

 

[visage]

Isn't the rising cost of health provision as much down to an ageing population as pure numbers? As has been pointed out, immigrants are generally young and healthy (and often very good-looking but that's a side issue) - it's the old duffers you need to be focusing your fire on.

Blaming immigrants wins votes though - there are plenty of useful idiots out there.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Isn't the rising cost of health provision as much down to an ageing population as pure numbers? As has been pointed out, immigrants are generally young and healthy (and often very good-looking but that's a side issue) - it's the old duffers you need to be focusing your fire on.

OK. That's ageist and is just as unwelcome as sexism or racism. Pmsl!

 

[Papper]

Thats a separate issue. Right here, right now, under our current arrangements, immigrants as a whole give the exchequer more than they take. I dont know how to put it more simply.

As a collective we take more than we give. That's why public costs exceed tax revenues. If you have two kids and need NHS treatment you are taking more than you are giving if you are earning minimum wage. If you are wealthy and pay £20K a year in tax but don't have kids or use the NHS you are most likely giving more than you take.

 

[Parkins left foot]

A big part of the problem with health is ageing population (immigration reduces the average age of those here rather than increasing it on the whole) as SLA says, but also the reduction in the number of beds available which have been significantly cut over the last few years - only one place to blame for that

 

[visage]

As a collective we take more than we give. That's why public costs exceed tax revenues. If you have two kids and need NHS treatment you are taking more than you are giving if you are earning minimum wage. If you are wealthy and pay £20K a year in tax but don't have kids or use the NHS you are most likely giving more than you take.

Well, yes. But people are arguing that immigrants create pressure on the public finances. They dont.

 

[So Long Architect]

OK. That's ageist and is just as unwelcome as sexism or racism. Pmsl!

:icon_smile:

To balance it out, there are good arguments to say that the grey army are also an economic and social benefit to the country so I'll refrain from suggesting that anyone over the age of 65 should be put on a massive bonfire.

 

[Tredman]

OK. I live in a rural location. I went into my local co op today. There were 4 people in the queue in front of me . 2 I know are single mums not working. 1 is a married lady not working invalidity benefit. 1 gent long term unemployed. All 4 bought either cigarettes or tobacco.3 of the 4 bought lottery tickets or scratch cards. 1 bought 4 x £5 cards. I have worked all my life. I cant afford to spunk money like that. When I see it happening so often is it any wonder I doubt the sysdtem and feel misanthropic?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...tage-of-all-claimants-of-each-type-of-benefit if it helps

Its (false) hope cyber - betting & the lottery are the modern day Christianity: 'yes you're life is shit and you see other people with loads of money, but buy a lottery ticket and you could be one of them too'

 

[Deleted Cyber]

85% of allegations of benefit fraud turn out (once people work with facts rather than what they see in the corner shop) to be false.

So you'll forgive me if I dont get into a frothing rage over your anecdote.

So 15% are true! There are 600 reports or more every day. That's 100 correct reports every day according to your figures. 500 a week. 2000 a month. 24000 a year. No its not an issue is it. Ffs that is exactly why people in Britain get pissed off because 24000 people a year are taking the piss and thats the ones we catch.

 

[Parkins left foot]

:icon_smile:

To balance it out, there are good arguments to say that the grey army are also an economic and social benefit to the country so I'll refrain from suggesting that anyone over the age of 65 should be put on a massive bonfire.

Should hope not - otherwise I'm done for

Still paying a fair bit of tax (as was fortunate enough to be in work when final salary pensions were more the norm) & hopefully add to society's benefit in the various volunteering activity I do, which provides services that would either not be or have to be provided by central/local government (in the current climate it would be not provided for)

 

[So Long Architect]

Should hope not - otherwise I'm done for

Still paying a fair bit of tax (as was fortunate enough to be in work when final salary pensions were more the norm) & hopefully add to society's benefit in the various volunteering activity I do, which provides services that would either not be or have to be provided by central/local government (in the current climate it would be not provided for)

Some stuff on both sides - https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/time-to-think-differently/trends/demography/ageing-population

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Its (false) hope cyber - betting & the lottery are the modern day Christianity: 'yes you're life is $#@! and you see other people with loads of money, but buy a lottery ticket and you could be one of them too'

Its false hope. I object to a system put in place to rightly help those not fortunate enough or in a position to help themselves that allows for such hypocrisy. " I can't afford to eat" but you can afford to smoke and play the lottery ffs. Compass is completely off. Perhaps its me.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

Cause we are not China mate ttft

Why is it alright to ban one form of population increase but not another?

If you're making the case from a purely economic standpoint then the immigrants have got newborns beat hands down, no upfront costs from all that messy, healthcare reliant delivery and instantly able to provide tax income through work.

Those workshy kids are sounding like the ones who are really stealing from the system and fucking everyone over.

 

[The Saturday Boy]

So 15% are true! There are 600 reports or more every day. That's 100 correct reports every day according to your figures. 500 a week. 2000 a month. 24000 a year. No its not an issue is it. Ffs that is exactly why people in Britain get pissed off because 24000 people a year are taking the piss and thats the ones we catch.

Are those people in the queue at your local co-op "taking the piss" because they don't spend their money the way you think they should? And, unless they are amongst the 15% who are committing benefit fraud it is their money. It isn't your money they are spending.

http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-busting-real-figures-benefit-fraud

So to get some perspective, benefit fraud represents 2% of the estimated total annual fraud in the UK. Public sector fraud, which includes benefit fraud, is £20.3 billion a year, so within this category it accounts for just under 8%. The majority of this £20 billion is tax fraud which costs the economy £14 billion annually, or 69%. So we can see that both in absolute and percentage terms tax fraud is a much bigger issue than benefit fraud. In fact, out of all the categories of fraud calculated by the UK Government, benefit fraud is the second lowest. Only identity fraud which costs individuals £1.4billion a year comes below it.

So tax fraud, by any measure, is more a problem than benefit fraud but poor people are an easy target to get pissed off with. They are the scroungers. When they buy scratch cards and lottery cards they can be sneered at.

If we eliminated all benefit fraud it would hardly make any difference.

If we eliminated all tax fraud it would make a huge difference.

 

[Papper]

Well, yes. But people are arguing that immigrants create pressure on the public finances. They dont.

No increased populations do. Nobody has ever blamed immigrants more the politicians who can't manage a population. A low skilled, low wage, service industry is fine but only a few get rich. If a young couple on low income or unemployed have a couple of children then they are taking more than they give (NHS/Education etc). That is not an excuse to point score or argue over it is factual and above all reasonable in the society we demand. As a collective we cannot match supply to demand unless we do what we were discussing previously.

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Why is it alright to ban one form of population increase but not another?

If you're making the case from a purely economic standpoint then the immigrants have got newborns beat hands down, no upfront costs from all that messy, healthcare reliant delivery and instantly able to provide tax income through work.

Those workshy kids are sounding like the ones who are really stealing from the system and $#@!ing everyone over.

Once they start castrating rapists and child abusers here then I will back you. Until then... Nah sorry

Then don't have a system that allows anyone to be workshy. I am really leaning towards an income for everyone and no benefit system. Cant take the piss then can u