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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

Deutsch Wolf said:
Also, there are controls on EU immigration (and certainly what newly arrived immigrants are entitled to from the state) that the UK has long since had at its disposal and chooses not to employ.
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Really ? I didn't know that Deutsch Wolf ? That almost suggests that whatever concerns the Electorate may have about Immigration, have been completely disregarded by successive Governments, as none of them have ever implemented any controls on EU immigration, as they have always lead us to believe that it was out of their control and just blamed the EU ? Have you got any links for this ?
 
So, according to our charismatic friend Mr Juncker, our Brexit bill means we will have pay the EU up to 60 billion euros (£51bn) after Brexit talks start ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39042876


Err...why would we even consider paying it ?

How about, "Don't worry Jean-Claude, the cheque's in the post"
 
There's a raft of incredibly dull EU legislation that allows numerous caveats for restrictions. Of course it's all within reason, we can't really blanket ban people or say "10,000 a year and no more" but there are measures that can be taken. It's a chore to pick through and I don't have the time or inclination to do it right now but it is there.

One of the key points mentioned by Leave was that "people can come from Syria/Turkey/wherever, pitch up somewhere in the EU and then they have their papers and they can come to the UK, stay here forever and we can't stop them". Not true:

When you stay in an EU country for a long stay, usually for more than three months, you will generally be issued with a national long-stay visa and/or a residence permit.

If your long-stay visa or permit has been issued by a Schengen area country, you can travel to another Schengen area country for three months per six-month period. You must:
justify the purpose of your stay;
have sufficient financial resources for your stay and return;
not be considered a threat to public policy, public security or public health.
You can also pass through other Schengen area countries on the way to your host country.


To move from one Schengen area country to another for more than three months, you will need a long-term visa and/or a permit for that country. If you wish to work, study or join your family in the second country, you may have to fulfil more national conditions. To travel to a country that is not in the borderless Schengen area, you must get a separate national visa and meet all the necessary conditions.
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Plenty of provisos there. If we choose not to employ them then that's our own domestic government's fault.

We already have a fair amount of restrictions on what benefits can be claimed on arrival into the country. You can't pitch up and claim housing benefit and JSA as soon as you land in Dover.
 
ProgWolf said:
So, according to our charismatic friend Mr Juncker, our Brexit bill means we will have pay the EU up to 60 billion euros (£51bn) after Brexit talks start ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39042876


Err...why would we even consider paying it ?

How about, "Don't worry Jean-Claude, the cheque's in the post"
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Yeah that's a really sensible tactic. Threaten a country who have 17 million people who voted to leave. The man is a pompous cretin. His arrogance shows why so many are sick of so called eurocrats. Keep it up Kurt. You'll piss the French dutch and danish off next and that's the end for the EU if they all want out.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
Yeah that's a really sensible tactic. Threaten a country who have 17 million people who voted to leave. The man is a pompous cretin. His arrogance shows why so many are sick of so called eurocrats. Keep it up Kurt. You'll piss the French dutch and danish off next and that's the end for the EU if they all want out.
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Cyber Man, we can but hope.
 
ProgWolf said:
Cyber Man, we can but hope.
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Just what we like isn't it? Bullied by Germans! That went well the last two times guys! Joking for those of you feeling sensitive I know he is from Luxembourg but the Junckers was too good to miss
 
As explained in this article which Vis linked to last week:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...need-to-know-about-article-50-in-five-minutes

We've committed to those payments, we're still in receipt of EU funds ourselves up until the day we actually leave, we're on the hook for it and rightly so. We can't just not pay, it's not an option. Negotiate, sure. But then we're back into the realm of trusting May et al with any kind of charm or skill which is like trusting Björn Sigurdarson and Leon Clarke to fire you to promotion.

What are your 17,000,000 people going to do? Maybe they should have thought about this kind of thing before they voted to Leave, just a thought.
 
Deutsch Wolf said:
As explained in this article which Vis linked to last week:

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/201...need-to-know-about-article-50-in-five-minutes

We've committed to those payments, we're still in receipt of EU funds ourselves up until the day we actually leave, we're on the hook for it and rightly so. We can't just not pay, it's not an option. Negotiate, sure. But then we're back into the realm of trusting May et al with any kind of charm or skill which is like trusting Björn Sigurdarson and Leon Clarke to fire you to promotion.

What are your 17,000,000 people going to do? Maybe they should have thought about this kind of thing before they voted to Leave, just a thought.
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No that's not the point Dan and you know it. The British people were presented with 2 choices . In or out. The fact that junckers and his cronies are trying their damnedest to make it as costly and difficult shows both how frightened they are of their little empire collapsing as the people see through them and how stupid he is for airing such views. It plays into the hands of those who want to be extreme right wing. It creates tension. Its unnecessary. He should shut the fuck up and leave the negotiations to the privacy of the negotiating table. Such pissing contests do no good.
 
That's not the point, we have made commitments to pay into the budget for the current budget period. If we walk away without at least negotiating a settlement we would be in breach of numerous treaties and probably be persuaded through international courts for years. It hardly creates a good environment for all these 'superb' new export agreements Boris will be making for us.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
No that's not the point Dan and you know it. The British people were presented with 2 choices . In or out. The fact that junckers and his cronies are trying their damnedest to make it as costly and difficult shows both how frightened they are of their little empire collapsing as the people see through them and how stupid he is for airing such views. It plays into the hands of those who want to be extreme right wing. It creates tension. Its unnecessary. He should shut the $#@! up and leave the negotiations to the privacy of the negotiating table. Such pissing contests do no good.
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I am sure that there is an option to reduce any exit payments, which would likely involve the EU not honouring commitments it has to us. There will be multi-year investments that have been made in projects, infrastructure, businesses that relied on our membership of the EU. Do you really think the EU would continue to honour that without financial commitment from the UK? If that exit payment is reduced, then so will future funding from the EU for pre-agreed projects which the government will either have to fund or see them crash and burn. There may be other avenues to explore that replace the EU funding that strengthens our negotiating position but nobody has come forward with anything yet.

The PM has already spoke about a transitional exit - there will be costs associated with that. Retaining any element of EU rules or regulations, there will be costs associated with that.

The idea that we could walk away from this arrangement after 40 odd years without their being a significant cost immediately and ongoing is fanciful.
 
tredman said:
That's not the point, we have made commitments to pay into the budget for the current budget period. If we walk away without at least negotiating a settlement we would be in breach of numerous treaties and probably be persuaded through international courts for years. It hardly creates a good environment for all these 'superb' new export agreements Boris will be making for us.
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To use a football example here, before the transfer window opens if a chairman of a club says -Well club B may want our striker but they will have to pay well over the odds for him and it wont stop there, we will have sell on clauses and any other restrictions we see fit and we will do the deal in the media spotlight quoting figures all the way and talk about it publishing the players wages, that wouldnt be right would it. Junckers has started an unnecessary pissing contest and needs to crawl back to his hole quickly. The man likes the sound of his own voice and the view of his own press far too much. A legend in his own mind.

The idea that we could walk away from this arrangement after 40 odd years without their being a significant cost immediately and ongoing is fanciful.
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Agreed but idiots like him should not be crowing like this at every opportunity. It will come back and bite him in the arse.
 
I was responding to "why would we even consider paying it?". The answer is because we have to.

I tell you what, I'll inform my electricity company that I'm leaving and when the final bill arrives I'll tell them bollocks, I haven't got any dealings with you any more so you can go swivel. Let's see how well that goes.
 
Deutsch Wolf said:
I was responding to "why would we even consider paying it?". The answer is because we have to.

I tell you what, I'll inform my electricity company that I'm leaving and when the final bill arrives I'll tell them bollocks, I haven't got any dealings with you any more so you can go swivel. Let's see how well that goes.
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We are leaving. We havent left. Negotiations need to occur to pave the way for that leaving. I would expect us to pay what we committed to during that time, where appropriate however we could negotiate some reductions. You know using Dans example we might have to pay the final electric bill but if the house is unoccupied we get 50% off the council tax. I am not an idiot! I know and understand how this can and will work but Junckers giving those types of soundbites is in my opinion , very unelpful. It gives ammunition to those who really really dont need it.
 
I suspect Juncker's attitude is at least mostly driven by the attitudes of our very own crack Brexit Task Force who have been anything but conciliatory.

May's speeches alone are frequently inflammatory in the opposite direction to Juncker so why, as it stands, would they *want* to make it easier for us?
 
Well, no. Its more like buying a sofa from DFS on a five year credit deal and then cancelling the payments because after two years you take it down the tip.
 
Cyber-_-man said:
To use a football example here, before the transfer window opens if a chairman of a club says -Well club B may want our striker but they will have to pay well over the odds for him and it wont stop there, we will have sell on clauses and any other restrictions we see fit and we will do the deal in the media spotlight quoting figures all the way and talk about it publishing the players wages, that wouldnt be right would it. Junckers has started an unnecessary pissing contest and needs to crawl back to his hole quickly. The man likes the sound of his own voice and the view of his own press far too much. A legend in his own mind.


Agreed but idiots like him should not be crowing like this at every opportunity. It will come back and bite him in the arse.
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We're about to go into a negotiation - surely what he should be doing is whatever it takes to get the best deal for his employers. He isn't an idiot and he isn't crowing, that is just you applying your own prejudices to someone you don't agree with.

We are living in 24 hour news culture - these people are being pressed for comment all the time. There is no benefit for him or the EU to say nothing, he is stating a reality that could probably be uncovered by some inspection of the treaties, agreements and commitments that are all a matter of public record. The EU has not asked us to leave, that is our decision.
 
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