REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

[Deleted Cyber]

imo that's closer to the truth but I think there are other things that can be factored in such as the electoral system, the impact of the press, what was the alternative that was being proposed...

Just on other points made.
i don't know if blair was a nailed on thatcherite or if he simply recognised that he needed to follow that line to win an election.

as for the country getting what it voted for, yes to an extent, but given that in many cases more people vote against the party that polls the most votes and goes on to form the goverment, that's not completely true. with a more representative electoral system you might also have had different voting patterns. of course you may then have had coalition style governments which might have been more representative but also more unstable and easier for non-democratic people to attack on the basis that the end policies "don't represent anything people voted for".

I have wailed long and hard for real PR. It is the only thing that Weill stop extremist politics either right or left. But getting it requires something akin to a large majority of turkeys voting for Xmas. Shame

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

I have wailed long and hard for real PR. It is the only thing that Weill stop extremist politics either right or left. But getting it requires something akin to a large majority of turkeys voting for Xmas. Shame

Clegg muffed it buddy. That should have been his red line in coalition.

I have no problem with saying I voted against AV even though I am a massive proponent of PR (and indeed federalism). Terrible compromise.

 

[nimrod]

I think it shows how out of touch politicians have been for 30 years. The spineless lack of tax increases or the chasing of large corporate conglomerates for appropriate tax is poor. Many of us would have taken a small tax hike if it meant better infrastructure or NHS. What I don't want to see is more skivers getting money so welfare reform was needed.
Me and Leeds are opposites so we rarely agree. I am 1964 but identify better with gen x than baby boom

when increases in tax have been proposed, have the public voted in sufficient numbers for it? if not, at what point should the electorate take some responsibility?

 

[leedswolf]

Fair comment DW.

 

[nimrod]

Clegg muffed it buddy. That should have been his red line in coalition.

I have no problem with saying I voted against AV even though I am a massive proponent of PR (and indeed federalism). Terrible compromise.

maybe, but it seems more likely that he asked for it and was never going to get it. i think a problem for clegg was that he was more of a democrat than cameron and co. that was a political weakness in the coalition discussions.

 

[leedswolf]

He (Clegg) favoured the 'will of the cabinet'?

 

[Deleted Cyber]

when increases in tax have been proposed, have the public voted in sufficient numbers for it? if not, at what point should the electorate take some responsibility?

I think that is the point but the politicians have been so nervous, so poor about tax rises and justifying them that the expectations for the last 2 general elections of many voters, have been unrealistic. Couple that with under investment in the NHS, significant foreign aid, increased pay for MPs well above the rest and you can see why I and many others look at our politicians with cynicism.

 

[leedswolf]

What is wrong with the UK meeting the UN's policy of a committment of 0.7% GDP for foreign aid?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

What is wrong with the UK meeting the UN's policy of a committment of 0.7% GDP for foreign aid?

We contribute almost three times that to NATO despite there being very little by way of credible threat in terms of an actual military aggressor from a sovereign nation against us in the last 70+ years.

 

[leedswolf]

What's the %GDP for UK subsidies for private industry?

 

[visage]

A significant chunk of foreign aid is actually in the form of credit export guarantees.

 

[Penk Wolf]

What is wrong with the UK meeting the UN's policy of a committment of 0.7% GDP for foreign aid?

One thing I struggle to argue against is why should we give foreign aid when we have people living on the street, etc.

 

[Tredman]

One thing I struggle to argue against is why should we give foreign aid when we have people at living on the street, etc.

We do have existing methods for most homeless to sleep in shelters etc, it's just often mental health issues prevent them doing so.

Ignoring the moral aspects of overseas development (its mostly not aid), it's also a fantastic way of building new export markets.

 

[leedswolf]

One thing I struggle to argue against is why should we give foreign aid when we have people at living on the street, etc.

Easy. We give foreign aid AND give to those vulnerable in society. I struggle to understand why the comparison is made. Is it down to a lack of understanding of the purpose of foreign aid?

 

[Parkins left foot]

We do have existing methods for most homeless to sleep in shelters etc, it's just often mental health issues prevent them doing so.

Ignoring the moral aspects of overseas development (its mostly not aid), it's also a fantastic way of building new export markets.

The mental health issue is only a problem because so much funding has been taken away from that - it wouldn't need that much (compared to what we spend overall) to resolve the issue

 

[Tredman]

The mental health issue is only a problem because so much funding has been taken away from that - it wouldn't need that much (compared to what we spend overall) to resolve the issue

True, but even if local authorities put the money in I don't think you would ever be able to get everyone off the streets.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Fifth largest economy in the world by GDP, we should be doing everything we can to help vulnerable and disadvantaged people, home and abroad.

We don't of course. Tory economics. They can't contribute so fuck them.

 

[visage]

One thing I struggle to argue against is why should we give foreign aid when we have people living on the street, etc.

We can easliy afford both. Also foreign aid isnt just Boris Johnson shovelling wheelbarrows full of cash out of a plane - its in the form of underwriting business deals for UK companies, for example.

 

[Penk Wolf]

True, but even if local authorities put the money in I don't think you would ever be able to get everyone off the streets.

Possibly not, but there are certainly people who don't want to be there and also pensioners who don't want go cold during the winter.

I appreciate that we could probably stop both and give foreign aid, but whilst the Government want to to cut then foreign aid would come higher than the some of the other stuff that have been cut or not even looked at.

 

[Parkins left foot]

True, but even if local authorities put the money in I don't think you would ever be able to get everyone off the streets.

Possibly as some will resist - but we could easily be doing more than we are