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REFERENDUM RESULTS AND DISCUSSION THREAD

The Saturday Boy said:
Not really. The House of Lords is the current second chamber. You can want reform of the House of Lords and be against leaving the EU. All it tells me is that Tim Farron would rather there was an alternative means at his disposal.

You were against the high court and supreme court challenges to the government - after voting to take back control that is hypocrisy.
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Is he a hypocrit?
 
thehistorymakers said:
Unelected, undemocratic Lords blocking Brexit has nothing to do with democracy. Parliament voted 6 to 1 to give the people the vote. Including MP'S from all English Parties. The people voted to leave in the biggest ever electoral turn out in the UK. Parliament then votes to accept to majority vote of the referendum to leave and you think an unelected, undemocratic house of Lords should be able to block Brexit!

Nelson Mandela would never have won the South African elections, with that sort of democracy! Shocking.
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You knew the rules. This is our democracy. You can't pick and choose. #takingbackcontrol
 
thehistorymakers said:
Unelected, undemocratic Lords blocking Brexit has nothing to do with democracy. Parliament voted 6 to 1 to give the people the vote. Including MP'S from all English Parties. The people voted to leave in the biggest ever electoral turn out in the UK. Parliament then votes to accept to majority vote of the referendum to leave and you think an unelected, undemocratic house of Lords should be able to block Brexit!

Nelson Mandela would never have won the South African elections, with that sort of democracy! Shocking.
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Yes, I do think the House of Lords should be able to block Brexit. Those are the rules that are in place. That the bill gets passed to the Lords to scrutinise. Whether you, myself or anyone else think it's correct or not is irrelevant. That is the system in place, so the Lords do have the right to block it and should be allowed to exercise that right. I have said numerous times that I don't think Brexit will be blocked and it shouldn't be, however we must make sure that everything is as clear as it can be of what Brexit entails before we trigger Article 50.

On a separate note - I have answered your questions, please could you answer mine. How is challenging the government on their plans and scrutinising their decision a bad thing?
 
The Saturday Boy said:
Not really. The House of Lords is the current second chamber. You can want reform of the House of Lords and be against leaving the EU. All it tells me is that Tim Farron would rather there was an alternative means at his disposal.

You were against the high court and supreme court challenges to the government - after voting to take back control that is hypocrisy.
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Because I thought it was a parliament issue, not a legal one. Many other people did do. That isn't hypocracy, it is coming out on the losing side. I accepted it and am happy parliament has passed the ammendments and the release clause for article 50. It is hypocritical to have gone on that you wanted parliament to have a vote and not accept the results when parliament has made its decisions. It is even worse when you asked for parliament to have a vote, don't like the results and then count on an unelected, unaccountable house of Lords to change what parliament has voted for.
 
Trips said:
Yes, I do think the House of Lords should be able to block Brexit. Those are the rules that are in place. That the bill gets passed to the Lords to scrutinise. Whether you, myself or anyone else think it's correct or not is irrelevant. That is the system in place, so the Lords do have the right to block it and should be allowed to exercise that right. I have said numerous times that I don't think Brexit will be blocked and it shouldn't be, however we must make sure that everything is as clear as it can be of what Brexit entails before we trigger Article 50.

On a separate note - I have answered your questions, please could you answer mine. How is challenging the government on their plans and scrutinising their decision a bad thing?
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They were challenged and the government won. Off to bed now.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
Nope. You are.
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Incredible, the evidence is in front of you and you are blind to it. Tim farron said the house of Lords is unaccountable and undemocratic and now he is depending on it to overturn a democratic result by the biggest ever turn out in the country and the houses of parliament.
He isn't only hypocritical, he is a bad loser, opportunist, has no scruples and only believes in democracy when he wins.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Because I thought it was a parliament issue, not a legal one. Many other people did do. That isn't hypocracy, it is coming out on the losing side. I accepted it and am happy parliament has passed the ammendments and the release clause for article 50. It is hypocritical to have gone on that you wanted parliament to have a vote and not accept the results when parliament has made its decisions. It is even worse when you asked for parliament to have a vote, don't like the results and then count on an unelected, unaccountable house of Lords to change what parliament has voted for.
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The government were trying to bypass parliament and in our democracy, courts have a say. Also in our democracy, The House of Lords is an integral part. The hypocrisy is having voted to take back control of our democracy you whinge when our democracy is in action. I don't see how you won't/can't/don't understand this.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
The government were trying to bypass parliament and in our democracy, courts have a say. Also in our democracy, The House of Lords is an integral part. The hypocrisy is having voted to take back control of our democracy you whinge when our democracy is in action. I don't see how you won't/can't/don't understand this.
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Never liked the house of Lords in it's current unaccountable and undemocratic set up, so I wouldn't want it to block something that the majority of people and the goverment voted for, just because that is my only chance. If it's wrong and unaccountable, it's wrong for it to overturn such a huge referendum result and parliamentary majority. I wouldn't change my view point to suit the occasion, that is what hypocracy is.
 
thehistorymakers said:
They were challenged and the government won. Off to bed now.
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They were barely challenged, and we know next to nothing of their plans. But of course, the majority of the people voted for it so lets just trigger now and worry about the ramifications later, that seems a much better plan.

And you just ignore my reasons for why the Lords should be able to block it. The democratic process in this country dictates that they have the right to block it. However you ignore this as it doesn't fit your ideology of what democracy is. Whether you feel the House of Lords is good or bad, that's irrelevant. Our democratic process says they have the right to block it, so they should have the opportunity to do so.

I have repeatedly said I don't think it will be blocked, and I don't want it to be either - yet they should be able to block it if they wish. I'm not sure what you don't understand about this.
 
Trips said:
They were barely challenged, and we know next to nothing of their plans. But of course, the majority of the people voted for it so lets just trigger now and worry about the ramifications later, that seems a much better plan.

And you just ignore my reasons for why the Lords should be able to block it. The democratic process in this country dictates that they have the right to block it. However you ignore this as it doesn't fit your ideology of what democracy is. Whether you feel the House of Lords is good or bad, that's irrelevant. Our democratic process says they have the right to block it, so they should have the opportunity to do so.

I have repeatedly said I don't think it will be blocked, and I don't want it to be either - yet they should be able to block it if they wish. I'm not sure what you don't understand about this.
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You said you wanted the Lords to block it. I have said in numerous posts why I disagree with that. If I believe the Lords is undemocratic and unaccountable, I wouldn't want the Lords to overturn a democratic result of the people and then the parliament, just because it suits my agenda. If it wrong it is wrong, not right when it suits me.

You believe the house of Lords should block Brexit. I don't need to say anything else on it.
 
thehistorymakers said:
You said you wanted the Lords to block it. I have said in numerous posts why I disagree with that. If I believe the Lords is undemocratic and unaccountable, I wouldn't want the Lords to overturn a democratic result of the people and then the parliament, just because it suits my agenda. If it wrong it is wrong, not right when it suits me.

You believe the house of Lords should block Brexit. I don't need to say anything else on it.
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I will repeat myself again. I don't think Brexit will be blocked, and I don't want it to be. Hopefully I have been clear on this and don't have to repeat it again.

Not once have I said that I want the Lords to block Brexit - I have stated on numerous occasions that I accept the result of the referendum and that we will leave the EU. What I don't accept is that we should just trigger without a clear picture of what post-Brexit Britain looks like. Please refrain from lying and stating opinions that I have not expressed.
 
Trips said:
I will repeat myself again. I don't think Brexit will be blocked, and I don't want it to be. Hopefully I have been clear on this and don't have to repeat it again.

Not once have I said that I want the Lords to block Brexit -
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These are your words from post 4204 on this page.


"Yes, I do think the House of Lords should be able to block Brexit."
 
That isn't me saying I want them to though is it? That is you twisting my words to try and prove a point that you know you are wrong on.

As has been explained numerous times this evening, our democratic process dictates that bills go through parliament and then to Lords. They have the ability to then block it.

Do I want them to block it - NO!

Should they be able to - YES! Because that it is in our process that they have the ability to do so, and should be able to do it if they wish.
 
Trips said:
That isn't me saying I want them to though is it? That is you twisting my words to try and prove a point that you know you are wrong on.

As has been explained numerous times this evening, our democratic process dictates that bills go through parliament and then to Lords. They have the ability to then block it.

Do I want them to block it - NO!

Should they be able to - YES! Because that it is in our process that they have the ability to do so, and should be able to do it if they wish.
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Sorry if I misunderstood you but it does look like you are saying you want them to block it and that it is your preference, but if you are saying you don't want them to block it, fair enough. I didn't twist any words, they were your exact words. But I accept your explanation.
 
thehistorymakers said:
Sorry if I misunderstood you but it does look like you are saying you want them to block it and that it is your preference, but if you are saying you don't want them to block it, fair enough. I didn't twist any words, they were your exact words. But I accept your explanation.
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This is why I stepped away last night. I knew you didn't understand what was being said. I'm still not even sure you do now and until you do I don't think you can have a credible discussion.
 
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