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Israel-Palestine

Walshes Wolves said:
So you don't believe the death figures that have been given by Hamas?
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Where have I said that I do? Nobody, including Hamas, can possibly know the true number of deaths and casualties in this conflict, their utterances at best can be described as propaganda. I think most people would know that.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
Where have I said that I do? Nobody, including Hamas, can possibly know the true number of deaths and casualties in this conflict, their utterances at best can be described as propaganda. I think most people would know that.
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Well their death count gets repeated in the media often enough, as though it can be trusted. I am happy to hear that you agree it is propaganda.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
That isn't a solution, as most Palestinians Don't want for Israel to exist.
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Hamas’ 1988 founding charter called for the takeover of all of mandate Palestine, including present-day Israel. However, in 2017 they issued a new document that said it would accept the 1967 borders as the basis for a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital and the return of refugees to their homes.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
Well their death count gets repeated in the media often enough, as though it can be trusted. I am happy to hear that you agree it is propaganda.
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But where did I use it? In the media it is routinely reported with the caveat that the numbers are provided by the Hamas Health Ministry.

As of January Hamas reported over 46000 deaths, this number is accepted by the UN who treat them as “reliable”. Health Journal The Lancet puts the number between 55000 and 75000 but accepts the number could be significantly higher or lower. All estimates, no matter the source, are unanimous on the belief that the majority of casualties are children, women and the elderly.

The estimates of conflict based casualties is not exact, but there are plenty of examples from previous conflicts that demonstrate it is possible to quantify the number of casualties to an extent that gives a strong degree of confidence.

But I have never referred to the number of casualties in any previous post so I don’t know why something I haven’t said now makes you happy. You made something up to make yourself happy. Think about that….
 
Templeton Peck said:
Hamas’ 1988 founding charter called for the takeover of all of mandate Palestine, including present-day Israel. However, in 2017 they issued a new document that said it would accept the 1967 borders as the basis for a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital and the return of refugees to their homes.
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That is noble of them. Why would you believe what they said in their charter,?
as these are the same people who purposely slaughtered women and children and dragged their dead bodies around Gaza, to be spit on.
 
The Saturday Boy said:
As of January Hamas reported over 46000 deaths, this number is accepted by the UN who treat them as “reliable”. Health Journal The Lancet puts the number between 55000 and 75000 but accepts the number could be significantly higher or lower. All estimates, no matter the source, are unanimous on the belief that the majority of casualties are children, women and the elderly.

The estimates of conflict based casualties is not exact, but there are plenty of examples from previous conflicts that demonstrate it is possible to quantify the number of casualties to an extent that gives a strong degree of confidence.
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You rather believe their figures or you dont.
 
Templeton Peck said:
Hamas’ 1988 founding charter calle for the takeover of all of mandate Palestine, including present-day Israel. However, in 2017 they issued a new document that said it would accept the 1967 borders as the basis for a Palestinian state, with Jerusalem as its capital and the return of refugees to their homes.
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You missed out the last sentence of their statement.

but without recognising the statehood of Israel.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
You used examples to insinuate there are grounds to think they could be reasonable estimates.
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In direct response to your assertion that they were repeated in the media "as if they could be trusted" which a/ is not how they are presented when the numbers come from Hamas and b/ to illustrate that casualty numbers do not only come from Hamas' health ministry.

I did not insinuate they could be reasonable estimates, indeed the figures I quoted from The Lancet are accompanied by the caveat they they could be significantly wrong (either way)

Please don't assume you are in a position to know what i think, why I think it or that you can present yourself as knowing either.
 
Walshes Wolves said:
So why do you believe their death count, on how many Palestinians have been killed, which comes directly from Hamas?
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Israel have forced this by barring journalists from entering Gaza. The Gaza Health Ministry is the only source because of that. To wit, the GHM's reported death tolls have always gone on to be verified within a small margin for error, and they aren't more incentivized to lie now than they've ever been. Per the Associated Press:
Hamas tightly controls access to information and runs the government media office that offers details on Israeli airstrikes. But employees of the Health Ministry insist Hamas doesn’t dictate casualty figures.

“Hamas is one of the factions. Some of us are aligned with Fatah, some are independent,” said Ahmed al-Kahlot, director of Kamal Adwan Hospital in northern Gaza. “More than anything, we are medical professionals.”
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Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

— 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

— 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

— 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.
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Templeton Peck said:
An acceptance of 1967 borders is an acceptance of reality.
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There are plenty of countries that don't recognize the legitimacy of other governments, anyway. It's perfectly normal. And generally, those cases have less to stand on than "some rich White folk took our land and gave it to people who don't live there anymore".
 
Alan said:
Oddly enough, I'd guess the Palestinians feel largely the same after 80ish years of near-Apartheid.
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Why I said in one of my first posts, I know how this started, but because of the mindsets, of both parties, I can't see a solution.
 
That bit is fair enough, although I feel it should be clear which side has the burden of proving its interest in a peaceful solution first. It's the one that's dropped ~40,000 tons of explosives on civilians.
 
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