Besiktas 0 Wolves 1 - At least Dick Turpin wore a mask verdict thread

[Kenny]

People are getting far too ahead of them selves if they think we should be going to Istanbul and winning 3,4 or 5-0.

I wouldn't say people are saying that. Our poor forward play justifies some of the comments being made, thankfully we rectified that as the game went on.

 

[Monstrum]

I think the end result is far more important than the performance. I wouldnt say we were awful, just a very defensive performance with very little creativity or attacking ideas. We are just lumping stoke style far too much this season, hoping for the best. Were giving the ball away too much. We cant seem to string a decent attacking play with one twos either, we did that a lot last season, along with fast counter attacks, switching flanks, etc. Now most of our attacks are lumping it forward and relying on traore to go past players and cross it.
Anyways, not the best performance but a great result.

 

[Kenny]

We are just lumping stoke style far too much this season, hoping for the best. .

We didn't really do that yesterday. Neto and MGW had plenty of balls played into their feet or ahead of them to run onto, infact Neto was getting into some great postions for the switch ball from Coady and Neves. They just messed up when they got the ball the majority of the time. The only hoofs came from defensive clearances really

 

[prawnking]

Absolutely agree with this.

Yep. It's become a go-to position for a decent chunk of very smart and interesting posters and I don't get it. You can't conflate even the most critical people on this forum with some of the idiots on Twitter, yet the reaction is literally as if people have called for Nuno's head or thought we should have unrealistically thrashed them last night. Getting patted on the head and told to 'calm down dear' by your betters is grating after a while.

I don't buy this fake humility where 'we've never had it so good' either. Of course it's literally true, as anyone who became a Wolves fan in the 80s will testify, but it doesn't mean we can't apply standards, say what we see or be ambitious for our team. It's not the delusions of grandeur it's lazily made out to be

 

[Langers]

I have no problem with criticism of the team when we don't play well as that's what this forum is for, but I do get the feeling that sometimes, the smallest of errors are picked up on, magnified and the scale of the criticism is often vastly OTT - particularly on matchday threads. There isn't much patience either.

I watched the game late last night as I was busy until around 9.30, and whilst I agree that it wasn't pretty (the last 15 minutes or so aside when we actually showed a bit more quality), it wasn't as bad as I was expecting going by the comments on here. It was a gritty game and I thought we defended well, though I was disappointed with us going forward. But considering how awful our defending has been prior to the Palace game, that's a massive positive IMO - we're not as easy to score against and credit is due for that.

We need to work harder when we have possession as we do give it away far too easily, and I'm sure Nuno will be working on this as a priority. But overall, it was a hard working performance in a very tricky fixture - I respect that it's opinion and I get that we're not playing as well as we can and we all want to see improvement in the performances, but I don't really understand the need for such extremes of negativity I'm afraid.

 

[The Bear]

We didn't set up defensively, or to nick a 1-0 or to put in a classic away performance, or anything like that. We set up exactly how we normally do, and tried to play exactly how we usually do, on the counter. We were ok at the back, but with the ball we were lacking any rhythm or build up interplay between the players.

As I said, defensively we were sound, with a little help from a poor Besiktas going forwards. The issue is what we did with the ball and how the formation/personnel didn't work on the night. I can't remember us keeping the ball for more than 20s until about the 70th minute. Yet they kept it and passed it around back and forth for quite a while at times.

I bloody love this team and Nuno, but generally speaking, not just last night, therein lies our one real weakness. Possession and build-up. We don't seem to be able to move the ball around whilst keeping it to the same level other top teams can. And we definitely need to learn to do that if we are going to progress as a team/club. We do it sometimes in very short spells, but not nearly consistently enough.

We generally build up really slow, then attack too directly in tight areas. I know it's a tough criticism, but developing that side of our game is important. Better players, better passing play in tight spaces, better build-up of attacks by players linking together. When we get it right we are great, as in the first goal against Watford, and countless Jota/Jimenez goals, but we don't create those sorts of moves enough, even if we don't ultimately finish them off.

 

[Johnny75]

We actually got in some decent postions in the first half but the fact Neto and MGW had poor games ruined that.

We pressed their midfield hard and got a lot of errors out of them but the ball went up front and it was either a poor touch or shit decision making that ended that (see the one when we won it back and Neto just had to go first time with the cross and Raul was unmarked on the penalty spot but he took 3 touches and lost the ball). That was the issue in the 1st half rather than how we set up. We restricted them to what in the 1st half? 3 shots 4 miles over the bar, a spell of 3 corners in 30 seconds, a ball hitting Coady and hitting the post (if we are counting that as a serious chance then neto's cross that deflected goalwards of Vida counts for us...).

It was obvious we had to replace Neto or MGW and we did straight away. Whilst not brilliant, Traore at least improved our attacking threat. 2nd half chances for them. A long range shot straight at Rui and Vida's header (he should score there or at least it the target). Personally I saw nothing different in how we set up away from home under Nuno. Tight defensive line, press in midfield and if they want to pass it around 40 yards from goal, let them (how many times did they go from 30 yards from goal back to the keeper or the deepest defender). We were just let down by the front 3 (well 2 of the 3, hard to have a go at Raul as he got zero service), over the 2nd half we sorted that out and had Saiss (2 chances) Raul header, Cutrone and the goal. It does read as if some think we parked the bus then in the 94th minute popped out and stole it.


I do like the fact that I have just read people arguing over a game where Wolves have won in Europe.....I love we have reached that level where in a premier tournament and win we can still pick it apart. This isn't having a go a people btw but just to show where we have arrived in such a short space of time. It's ace.

When we did get into decent positions in the first half it was as if the two 19 year old's were told not to go forward but to check back, slow it down and try and keep possession. It was painfully obvious that was the tactic for the first half and it didn't work. I thought Neto was the patsy here and it was actually that we set up far too deep and try to play on the counter from that deep when the players out there aren't set up to do that. If you're going to do that you need out and out pace and only Traore offers that at the moment.

I'm glad Nuno's pissed off with us going forward as we just didn't until 10 minutes to go (which is the only time I would say we actually started to play). If he sets up to stiffle in our defensive third then the gap is too wide to Raul and we get what has happened so far this season. If we press higher up the pitch as a unit, as we did last season, then we have far more chance of getting the ball to Jota/ Raul/ Neto/ Traore in more advanced positions and actually control the game.

Sitting too deep invites long shots and crosses which when headed clear only fall to opposition players at the moment. It was exactly this yesterday. Last season we were much better at letting the opposition have the ball in the midfield third and winning the ball back the moment they entered our defensive third. Only Boly did this last night.

When we changed this for the last 10 minutes or so it made the world of difference. I'm more of a set your stall out first and let the opponent change as it projects confidence and ability rather than weakness. Gaurdiola's and Klopp's teams do exactly this. Nuno set his team out in the first two seasons to do this too.

I think whilst the differences between last season and this are only slight in terms of position and tactics they are having a huge impact on the way Nuno's team controls the game. I haven't seen that control so far this season bar Watford where we set out to do this from the start.

I really don't want us to go down the MM route of trying to nick a winner in the 90th minute every game, it only leads to relegation.

 

[big mean bunny]

I watched the game in isolation from SM this forum and feel better for that. Great experience watching Wolves win away.

 

[Kenny]

When we did get into decent positions in the first half it was as if the two 19 year old's were told not to go forward but to check back, slow it down and try and keep possession.

Well Neto attempted to go forward plenty of times so that one is off. The full back and Vida had his number though and the 2 times he did get behind their defence he first hit a low cross against Vida and then tried to be too clever in a situation where he needed to cross 1st time. MGW did what you say, but a lot of the time that was because Doc hadn't done the overlap and MGW is never going to go head down and run to the line is he. His decision making with the ball was poor as well, maybe he would have benfitted from having Donck on the pitch with him

The truth in our performance falls somewhere in the middle of the positive and negative reactions to the game

 

[Johnny75]

Neto did go forward but then checked back almost all of the time. He also didn't get the ball moving fast enough or change pace and direction to commit defenders decision making. It was a simple control of the ball and move it, very easy to defend and as Saturday showed he can certainly move off the ball when he has the support to do it.

Our tempo was awful and everybody contributed to that.

I'm delighted we won but it was a poor performance.

 

[StuardoWulf]

We didn't set up defensively, or to nick a 1-0 or to put in a classic away performance, or anything like that. We set up exactly how we normally do, and tried to play exactly how we usually do, on the counter. We were ok at the back, but with the ball we were lacking any rhythm or build up interplay between the players.

Nailed it mate. We are just struggling to get the fluidity and passing right. Nuno can't complete passes for the team.

BTW I enjoy the comments from both sides. People are entitled to their opinions and to challenge those of others.

One thing we can all agree on is "bloody good 3 points that"

 

[Kenny]

Don't agree it was a poor performance. We had players who were poor on the night and they didn't survive the 90 minutes. Not saying it was superb performance either btw, plenty to pick at but plenty of positives.

A few weeks ago we gave Everton 3 goals and gave Chelsea the freedom of Molineux to score 5. Last night we restricted a team to 1 shot on target and that was as simple a save as Rui will have to make and 1 other chance they should have hit the target with. Our defending was good, especially Boly on the tracking of their striker around the 6 yard area. Rebuilding the confidence in the defensive unit is key to us kick starting our season. Over the last 3 games we have gone from being wide open to conceded an unlucky OG and 2 clean sheets. Keep that solid base coupled with Jota returning and Raul having a few days of rest and we now facing in the right direction again.

Regardless of where Besiktas are in the league at this moment, that is not an easy place to go and get a result. Bang on about their position but we have only just snook out of the bottom 3 of our own league. They may have fragile confidence at the moment but ours isn't much better.

 

[MobNet Wolf]

I’d agree we were poor at times and had we not won it would have been a real wasted opportunity.

But we did win. It’s a results business, especially in a small round robin format.

Posters suggesting “people are letting the result cloud their view” are themselves missing that point.

Get in, get out, take the points.

I assume most posters are happier than their verdicts suggest. But if anyone is truly struggling to savour winning 0-1 at Besiktas with a last gasp goal, because of weaknesses in our overall performance, I’d suggest taking a step back, a deep breath, and try to remember how far we’ve come and the fact that this may not last.

 

[prawnking]

I have no problem with criticism of the team when we don't play well as that's what this forum is for, but I do get the feeling that sometimes, the smallest of errors are picked up on, magnified and the scale of the criticism is often vastly OTT - particularly on matchday threads. There isn't much patience either.

I watched the game late last night as I was busy until around 9.30, and whilst I agree that it wasn't pretty (the last 15 minutes or so aside when we actually showed a bit more quality), it wasn't as bad as I was expecting going by the comments on here. It was a gritty game and I thought we defended well, though I was disappointed with us going forward. But considering how awful our defending has been prior to the Palace game, that's a massive positive IMO - we're not as easy to score against and credit is due for that.

We need to work harder when we have possession as we do give it away far too easily, and I'm sure Nuno will be working on this as a priority. But overall, it was a hard working performance in a very tricky fixture - I respect that it's opinion and I get that we're not playing as well as we can and we all want to see improvement in the performances, but I don't really understand the need for such extremes of negativity I'm afraid.

People always say they don't have a problem with criticism of the team and then begin to list all their problems... which usually revolve around others having different temperaments and not being as patient and wise as them.

I agree that the return to defensive solidity is welcome and necessary, and hopefully it's a platform, but the dearth of shots at goal till late in the game, as well as our laboured attacking play for much of the season is obviously going to be commented on. I don't know why it freaks people out. I don't agree there are extremes of negativity doing the rounds on here, if you're on about a few moans on a match day thread when people are anxious and emotional then I despair... I'm sure you've all heard worse at a match! Football can be anxious and emotional in the heat of the moment and people are invested!
It's fine to see things differently but it's never left as just that, there's always that little superior 'I don't understand the negativity' when the club, our playing style, a performance, Nuno or even a transfer window get even the mildest criticism

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Before we played any Europa games a chap I work with who is a Liverpool fan and has followed them in Europe for years, came over to me and said "by the way you'll hardly win any away games in Europe, even against teams you'll smash at home" - I think some people are underestimating how hard it actually is - If you just look at Besiktas' team in terms of the players they have - they'd be a solid Premier League team minimum and we all know how hard it is to win away from home in the Premier League, in Europe you have different style to contend with and maybe most importantly that atmosphere, I know people who went who say they've never heard anything like it, Coady came out at the end and said when he was shouting on the pitch he couldn't even hear his own voice.

Look at United last night - went away to Alkmaar and didn't even have a shot on target.

We are novices when it comes to these European games and it's all good experience.

This bit can't be overstated enough.

These are not like normal league games. Not only do you have to factor in travel, conditions, atmosphere, unfamiliarity with the opposition (I don't care how many DVDs you watch, it's not like you'll know as much about Besiktas as you do Palace/Watford) etc, every result is magnified because you have six games, not 38. Any defeat can be catastrophic depending on the context of the group. So sometimes you have to play in such a manner that avoiding defeat is the first priority.

Think back to Fergie's first great United team - Ince, Kanchelskis, Cantona and all that. Used to absolutely paste teams in the Premier League. The best team by an absolute mile. They couldn't even get out of group stages. Used to lose away at teams like IFK Göteborg. Because they had no experience as a team (a few individuals having played in Europe before isn't the same thing) and they didn't know how to play situations properly. As time went on, you saw that especially away from home, they didn't play like a standard "United" team did. Wasn't very entertaining at times either. That's the game though. Mancini always failed at City in Europe because he never changed anything and they got picked off.

No-one disputes that the game was lacking in entertainment and quality for the most part. Nor that our work on the ball was below par and has to improve - even the captain and the manager said this. However - you go to a place where it's that long since an English club won there, it was Berbatov who scored the winner. For Spurs. You win to nil with the goalkeeper making basically no serious saves. It's not a game I'm going to watch back countless times (unless I'm struggling to drop off to sleep) but as the cricketing phrase goes - look in the book.

 

[The Bear]

We havent returned to defensive solidity as some sort of tactical switch which is now restricting our passing play.

We have just cut out the unusual and silly individual errors which have cost us at the start of this season, and have gone back to defending a a unit better.

It has nothing to do with the performance last night.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Just to run through British teams' away results in Europe so far this season:

Olympiacos 2-2 Tottenham
Shakhtar Donetsk 0-3 Man City
Napoli 2-0 Liverpool
Lille 1-2 Chelsea
Rennes 1-1 Celtic
Young Boys 2-1 Rangers
AZ 0-0 Man Utd
Eintracht Frankfurt 0-3 Arsenal
Besiktas 0-1 Wolves

A real mixed bag. Spurs and Liverpool, last season's finalists, one point between them and four conceded. They are both quite a way better than their opponents in that away game too. Two wins out of five in the Europa League, of which we are one. All the other teams qualify for Europe pretty much every single year and so have ridiculous amounts of experience to call upon.

It's hard. We put ourselves in a bind by losing at home to Braga (when we shouldn't have). Fixed it now though. Arguably both games could have been draws (maybe even a pair of 0-0s), but we have three points instead of two. Like I say, every result counts here and that comes way before anything else, unlike in league games. I think we're all prepared to write off Sunday and so long as we make a decent fist of it and don't do a Watford, no-one will lose any sleep about getting 0 points. Can't do that in Europe.

 

[MARKakaJIM]

We havent returned to defensive solidity as some sort of tactical switch which is now restricting our passing play.

We have just cut out the unusual and silly individual errors which have cost us at the start of this season, and have gone back to defending a a unit better.

It has nothing to do with the performance last night.

There's been a definite change in system, and in my opinion at least, that has lead to improved defensive solidity. Having the ability to drop back to a flat four across the middle of the pitch in front of the back five has made the team look a lot less overwhelmed in midfield. Previously whenever opponents pushed their fullbacks on it would lead to one of the midfield three getting drawn out to cover them so the wingbacks weren't overloaded but that just left a deficit in the middle of the park instead as the forward players stayed up top as a two.

I wouldn't say that it's had any detrimental effect on the ability to play when in possession though, the failings there are much more to do with individuals than the system as I see it, players just don't appear to be as composed as last season half the time and end up rushing things or going too direct. Previous to last night I think the switch had actually improved some of the ball retention and reduced the tendency to go long early, perhaps reverting to a single forward makes the long ball less attractive with fewer options up there or having the wide players often deep just provides more short passing options instead.

I don't think last night was necessarily a tactical failing, just an underwhelming performance for many individuals that lead to a very disjointed team performance. Jimenez didn't look to have the usual hustle and bustle to his game that leads to him causing so many problems, Cutrone lacks some of his polish at times but in a situation like last night where the team was struggling to get going I think his fresh legs and bullish mentality would've been a better bet to try and scrap a better foothold in the opposition half. The wide players struggled similarly, both starters worked diligently out of possession but neither ever really looked like they had the weapons to beat their opposite number or got into the right areas to combine with team mates to any great effect. Central midfield wasn't steady but unspectacular, Moutinho his usual tidy self and always managing to win the ball back more often than you'd ever imagine but Neves still struggling to really dominate games at the moment, just not being able to display the range of passing that can control a game.

There were a few spells where it looked like something might click and perhaps an earlier goal might have given them the belief to carry that through but until the last 10 minutes it was certainly one to forget. Can remember one move in the first half in particular that sort of summed things up for me. Besiktas had the ball with Wolves looking completely unthreatened, Moutinho pressed and won the ball, went square to Neves just inside their half with space to play. Doherty coming up to his right, Moutinho still square to his left, Jimenez running through the centre with MGW to his right and Neto all the way over on the left, time and space to pick his pass with plenty of options in support. To me Doherty looked the obvious pass on the overlap with MGW occupying the fullback ahead of him but instead he threaded a ball through to Neto, probably in the least threatening area of any of those options, but it was overhit and forced Neto right down into the corner flag with a defender bearing down on him. The ball was worked back down the line and eventually ended up with Coady or Patricio, in maybe 5 seconds it had gone from a really promising opportunity, winning the ball in a good area with the opponent on the back foot and options in support to back on Wolves 18 yard box with every defender back behind the ball.

 

[Sedgley Wolf]

I do like the fact that I have just read people arguing over a game where Wolves have won in Europe.....I love we have reached that level where in a premier tournament and win we can still pick it apart. This isn't having a go a people btw but just to show where we have arrived in such a short space of time. It's ace.

Great point, well made. And a great post.

Without wanting to repeat what Kenny said, Nuno saw the problem with the front three and changed it - the changes then helped us to get that period of pressure at the end which led to a goal (should have been two).

It wasn't great but we've recently had our arses slapped by Chelsea and if we'd lost this we'd have been in EL trouble. You can't just expect us to be at our swashbuckling best after a mini-crisis, so the pant-wetting theatrics in the match thread look petulant really.

With Nuno in charge we'll finish comfortably mid-table and I'd also back us to reach the EL knock-outs (fingers firmly crossed as I write this). Hard life, eh?

 

[Deleted Cyber]

Great point, well made. And a great post.

Without wanting to repeat what Kenny said, Nuno saw the problem with the front three and changed it - the changes then helped us to get that period of pressure at the end which led to a goal (should have been two).

It wasn't great but we've recently had our arses slapped by Chelsea and if we'd lost this we'd have been in EL trouble. You can't just expect us to be at our swashbuckling best after a mini-crisis, so the pant-wetting theatrics in the match thread look petulant really.

With Nuno in charge we'll finish comfortably mid-table and I'd also back us to reach the EL knock-outs (fingers firmly crossed as I write this). Hard life, eh?

And I think the majority of us agree with that, however during a match the thread calls it as it sees it and that is often accurate. For example, the first halfyesterday MGW and Neto were poor. We were flaccid in our penetration and that was backed up by a very cautious , yet understandable , defensive approach. That approach with MGW and Neto playing well would still have created something. However its not pant wetting to highlight that we looked rough as nuts in the first half for the aforementioned reasons. We have come a long way in a short time, but given the investment and the strategic aims and ambition of our owners I would suggest that they do not want to be seen to either tread water or go backwards. That first half was poor by any definition and was called it on here. Acknowledged also by Nuno post match.

Its harsh to look at instant reactions and call it pant wetting.